Too much magic in DnD - lets do something about it !

[bramadan]

Here is my scholar class. It is supposed to go with the basic rundown of the rules I suggested before:

The Scholar

Scholars are lore-masters and alchemists. Sages and explorers came from their number but so do the Demonologists and Necromancers. They are counter-part to the rogues in that that they are masters of many skills but theirs are of more intellectual type.

Hit Die: d6
BAB: As Wizard
ST: As Monk

Class Skills:
Alchemy, Appraise, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Heal, Knowledge, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Wilderness Lore

Class Features:

Weapon/armour proficiencies:
Scholar is proficient with all simple weapons and with light armour.

Scholarly Lore:
The scholarly lore functions as the “Bardic Lore” but with following exceptions.
At second level and every two levels thereafter scholar can choose the “Area of Expertise” in this area scholar can use synergy between his knowledge skill and the scholarly lore. One half of the scholarly lore level can be added to all knowledge skills in the area. Further specializations can be either in different fields or in a particular sub-field. If the sub-field is chosen the full scholarly lore score can be added to all knowledge checks in this sub-field. One more level of specialization is available to the truly dedicated scholars allowing the one and a half scholarly lore added to the particular topic within a subfield.
Typical Fields would be: Arcana, Arhitecture/Engeneering, Alchemy, Profession Herbalist, Geography, History, Religion, Folklore, etc…
Typical subfields would be (within say Arcane ) would be Demon Lore, Rune Lore, Magical artefacts etc…
Typical topics would be (within Demon Lore): Succubi and Incubi, consequences of Demonology on mortal practitioners, and so on.

Skill Lore:
Starting 3rd level and every three levels thereafter Scholar can chose a single skill. Number of allowed ranks in this skill is increased from level+3 to level +5 for class skills and from (level+3)/2 to (level+5)/2 for cross class ones. The new ranks still need to be paid for with skill points but otherwise count as ranks for all purposes including the synergy bonus (this is a powerful ability as it makes qualifying for certain prestige classes much easier) .

Book Lore:
Starting 5th level Scholar can get bonuses to skills due to the available books on the subject. Number of skills in which this can be used is equal to scholar’s level and the maximum allowed bonus is +1 at 5th level and +1 more for every two level above that. Only appropriate skills can be so enhanced and availability of the relevant books can restrict the use of this ability.

Language Lore:
Starting 3rd level all languages cost only one skill point.
At 6th level scholar can understand most living languages even if she has not previously encountered them. For previously unheard languages intelligence checks can be used to figure the nature of the writing or the conversation. DC varies with circumstance. At 8th level scholar can try to make herself understood in a totally novel languages. Wisdom check is used. At 10th level scholar can attempt to communicate with any being with intelligence 3 or more.

Great Lore:
At 7th level scholar can identify magical and special items as well as read most of the arcane and archaic scripts even if she has no ranks in appropriate skills. The analysis time required is anything between a day and a week and the result duplicates the spells identify or comprehend languages.

True Lore:
At 10th level analysis of objects or writings can produce results equivalent to the spells Analyse Dweomer or Legend Lore.

Arcane Lore:
At 10th level scholar becomes able to cast a single first level arcane spell at caster level equal to half her level. The spell has to be picked in advance. This ability is open only to those scholars with +5 or more in knowledge: arcana.

I would like to add some Alchemical and Herbalistic stuff but am waiting for the Jim Bishop's book next month. It is realy a 10 level class by which time expectation is that the character will multiclass into one of the prestige classes.
Any ideas, suggestions and so on are most welcome.

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Re: Consistent Rules for Mysterious Magic?

Flavor, is a thing the DM and players are responsible for, not the rule's publisher.

Actually, the DM, players, and publisher are all responsible.

As an example of what the rules can do, imagine switching around the spell lists a bit. For example, bump up all evocation (and/or all directly damaging) spells two levels, and reduce Bestow Curse, Polymorph Self, and Polymorph Other to first level. Replace Summoning I through IX with Planar Binding.

Even unimaginative players (and the DM controlling the evil sorcerer) will be playing more like classic wizards, witches, and sorcerers.

 

[Ace]

I like the D&D 3e rules and I like running low-magic games. One thing I do is have fewer, weaker monsters than the 3e norm, generally conversions of old monsters without pumping them up the way many 3e monsters are (starting with those muscle-man orcs - orcs used to have STR 12).

BTW, no GM I know uses those wealth by level tables, in my experience most 4th level fighters are still running around in their 1st-level chain shirts...

My 2nd level Fighter was delighted last week when he got to strip a friend's corpse of his chain shirt to replace his own scalemail; although I had to pay 12gp to refit it, a serious dent in my funds...

I hate to say it S'mon but you game sounds really dull to me. Part of the thrill on playing DND instead of another system is the progression of power.
Today orcs, tommorow gnolls, next month a dragon....

Honestly if I had such a cheap DM (12gp is a major sum) I would leave the group as would everyone I have ever played with

Now I am not saying what you are doing is wrong, to each his own after all, but Low magic DND is not interesting to most players

As far as the tables, I tend to give about that much in my games. Its DND for peat sakes..


Two more comments

The AC system breaks down at medium and high levels without a defense bonus of some kind.

It is assumed within the system that a character will have magic defenses appropriate to thier level.

As an example an two 8th level fighters with no magic a masterwork longsword and chain armor and a large metal shield face off

Each has a toal bonus of +13/+8 (st16, MW sword, Weapon focus) and an AC of 20 (dodge, chainmail, dex14, shield)
This means a 65% chance to hit with the first hit and a 40% chance on the second.
With those odds fights will be short and blood s you can pretty much assume each person will take 9-10 points a round and with little magic healing well...

At high level (say 12th) it get even worse.


Another thing I have noticed is that a lot of the DM's who want a low magic enviroment are simply afraid of powerfull PC's wrecking the game world.

It is an issue of control sometimes.
My GAWD if I let the players have magic they will wreck my world.
I am somewhat sympathetic to that view.

The DND approach "Magic as Tech" lacks any sort of reality base or versimilitude.
If you want a realish game world all that power inherent in DND magic will lay waste to it.

I am an inverterate world builder and after a while the inherent assumptions of DND made it impossible for me to create the game I wanted in my game world as written

What I did is 'DND the game world' basically work the assumptions into the background
.
I have versions of the world for seven different systems (GURPS Magic, GURPS Ritual Magic, Unisystem Witchcraft Rules. Rolemaster, Ars Magica and of course DND 2e and 3e)

While I happen to think that the D20 system is pretty good it really isn't designed for low fantasy and if you want to use it that way and still retain a fun action oriented game you will need major changes.

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

The feel of magic

I agree with Bastoche. The feel of magic has little to do with the system. Any deterministic magic system (which by definition of a game which has rules) is going to have the mystery taken out of it by the players who have views to all the mechanics. You can do one of two things about this: make the mechanics obscure and not visible to players or allow the players to flavor the magic and make the magic come real for the world.

I think a lot of "low-magic preferring" GMs want to go with the 1st, and end up in a load of trouble because the first option really de-empowers the player. As a result players don't like it, and the game isn't as fun.

The second approach is really the way to go, but requires that the players be imaginative and effective with a clear vision of their magic users. (Note: the first option wouldn't be any good without good players either, but the result isn't as obvious, since players in a low magic campaign tend to have to play fighters or non-magic users, so the issue goes away)

As an example, I'm playing a necromancer in a medium magic Greyhawk campaign right now, and I'm having a lot of fun. The first time she cast a sleep spell, she stepped forward and crushed some wolf entrails in her hand, causing her enemies' hearts to fail and fall asleep. In mechanical terms, it's just a sleep spell, but the way she did it made all the players (and the DM) at the table go Ah!

When she cast Bull's strength or Cat's grace, she pulls out a jar of blood, dips a finger into it, and strokes her fingers on the warrior's cheeks (battle-paint style), and intones, "Blood of the Tiger, lend you his strength" (or grace).

I'm sorry, if you can't see the mysteriousness and magic in the default Players Handbook Magic system, it's not a fault of the system. Any reasonable magic system that's deterministic and usable by players is going to have to have consistent results or be damned near impossible to adjudicate. (Or you might as well be playing Nobilis or Amber diceless and have all actions be determined by the DM) But to make the magic system come alive --- that's up to you and your players' imagination.

Rather than come up with ways to *obstruct* your players or prevent them from becoming really powerful, why not *instruct* them (preferably by example) and *inspire* them into role-playing a world where the wonderful is commonplace and magic a possibility?

I'm not saying that I'm as inspired as the above examples happen all the time, but I will happily tell you that those moments of inspiration when they come out, work just fine in a standard magic D&D campaign. There's no need to go low magic or grim & gritty to do so.

(And having experienced both low magic and standard magic, there's no way I'll go back to low magic games --- and I'll fight with tooth, nail and spells anybody's attempt to change the core rules to reflect low magic as a starndard

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Re: Re: Make magic magical!

For example, a 1st level magic-using class might have the spell "Curse". The player casts the spell - the wording of the curse becomes the verbal component - and the DM generally figures out what happens to the victim. (That is, if the curse operates as the player intends.) A Silent "Curse" might be called the "Evil Eye". The intensity of the Curse scales with level.

This isn't too different from Ravenloft's mechanics for a curse with modifiers for how Justified the curse is, how Dramatic, how Severe, whether the curser fails a Power Check and goes toward the Dark Side, etc.

I think what might work are some kind of meta-game spell mechanics. A spell is cast, and, by some method, either the DM or Player alters the plot line in some way. I'm not sure how this would work; but I think this would be an interesting way to make magic mysterious and strange.

Although a flexible DM-adjudicated magic system can work beautifully, it is, by its nature, hard to run. If you want magic to work as a plot element (and not just artillery), the best element of the Ravenloft-curse style of magic is the Escape Clause. The evil spell does something terrible...until its countered by some otherwise mundane action: receiving a kiss from a prince, giving and receiving True Love (despite a beastly appearance), performing Twelve Labors for a nearby king, etc.

 

[LostSoul]

Re: The feel of magic

I think a lot of "low-magic preferring" GMs want to go with the 1st, and end up in a load of trouble because the first option really de-empowers the player. As a result players don't like it, and the game isn't as fun.

"De-empowering" the Players is relative. If the world possesses less magic, a wizard needs less magic to be considered powerful.

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

De-empowerting the player

"De-empowering" the Players is relative. If the world possesses less magic, a wizard needs less magic to be considered powerful.

LostSoul is misinterpreting me. When I said de-empowering the players (note that I didn't say de-empowering the PCs), I meant that if players don't understand or can't understand how the magic system works, they can't make decisions as to how to use it, when to use it, and what to use it for. It makes the game un-fun. It's like playing chess but not being told the rules (or worse, being told that you're playing chess but having random rule-tweaks in effect). I know as a player I wouldn't play in such a game.

If you're going to house rule magic, write it down so that it's consistent. Otherwise, declare that all magic is GM adjudicated, and deal with the consequences!

 

[LostSoul]

Re: De-empowerting the player

LostSoul is misinterpreting me.

Yep, I did misinterpret you. Sorry about that.

 

[Desdichado]

Ace:
I hate to say it S'mon but you game sounds really dull to me. Part of the thrill on playing DND instead of another system is the progression of power.
Today orcs, tommorow gnolls, next month a dragon....

Honestly if I had such a cheap DM (12gp is a major sum) I would leave the group as would everyone I have ever played with

Now I am not saying what you are doing is wrong, to each his own after all, but Low magic DND is not interesting to most players

That's really beside the point that you aren't interested in this kind of game. This thread states very specifically that it is for those who are interested to come together and hash out some ways to make it work smoother. If you're not interested in that style of game, it's a lot more helpful to ignore the thread than come in and tell us that those of us who prefer this style of game are wrong because you would leave such a group, or you are sure what most players of the game think and want.

Ace again:
The AC system breaks down at medium and high levels without a defense bonus of some kind.

It is assumed within the system that a character will have magic defenses appropriate to thier level.

As an example an two 8th level fighters with no magic a masterwork longsword and chain armor and a large metal shield face off

No kidding. Hence the thread: how to make the game work at low magic levels. We're all aware of the difficulties, we're looking for ways around them.

Ace once again:
Another thing I have noticed is that a lot of the DM's who want a low magic enviroment are simply afraid of powerfull PC's wrecking the game world.

It is an issue of control sometimes.
My GAWD if I let the players have magic they will wreck my world.
I am somewhat sympathetic to that view.

Speak for yourself. I simply prefer that genre of fantasy. So do a lot of folks. Otherwise George RR Martin wouldn't be so popular. There's no reason to make accusations of control-freakyness here.

Also sprach Ace:
The DND approach "Magic as Tech" lacks any sort of reality base or versimilitude.
If you want a realish game world all that power inherent in DND magic will lay waste to it.

I am an inverterate world builder and after a while the inherent assumptions of DND made it impossible for me to create the game I wanted in my game world as written

What I did is 'DND the game world' basically work the assumptions into the background
.
I have versions of the world for seven different systems (GURPS Magic, GURPS Ritual Magic, Unisystem Witchcraft Rules. Rolemaster, Ars Magica and of course DND 2e and 3e)

While I happen to think that the D20 system is pretty good it really isn't designed for low fantasy and if you want to use it that way and still retain a fun action oriented game you will need major changes.

It's not as bad as you make it out to be. Some relatively minor changes can do it, as this thread has demonstrated. You're not the only experienced world-builder on these boards, y'know. I personally think D&D has the potential to cover more types of genres that it usually does. Sure, it requires a little rework, but it hardly requires throwing out the whole system and starting from scratch.

Now Thorin Stoutfoot:
Rather than come up with ways to *obstruct* your players or prevent them from becoming really powerful, why not *instruct* them (preferably by example) and *inspire* them into role-playing a world where the wonderful is commonplace and magic a possibility?

Quite simply because many people (myself included) prefer a low magic genre. That's the kind of fiction I like, that's the kind of game I prefer. D&D is a good system, with a huge user base, so it makes sense to make tweaks to that system rather than simply pick another one, or do something else. Your solution isn't one at all, because it presupposes that the D&D standard magic availability is optimal, when that's nonsense. That's a personal taste decision, and if someone wants suggestions on how to make D&D run smoothly at a lower level, it is rude to jump in and tell him that he shouldn't even be trying to do that: why isn't he just a better DM that can make role-playing a priority to his players? It's also irrelevant, because role-playing isn't the issue; it's an issue of genre preference.

Thorin Stoutfoot again:
I'm not saying that I'm as inspired as the above examples happen all the time, but I will happily tell you that those moments of inspiration when they come out, work just fine in a standard magic D&D campaign. There's no need to go low magic or grim & gritty to do so.

Except that, if you read the thread, you would have noticed that grim and gritty is the desired state, not having moments of inspirational role-playing.

Thorin Stoutfoot one more time:
(And having experienced both low magic and standard magic, there's no way I'll go back to low magic games --- and I'll fight with tooth, nail and spells anybody's attempt to change the core rules to reflect low magic as a starndard

Sounds like you read the subject line but none of the posts in the thread. Nobody is trying to change the core rules: this is a thread is a forum for those who prefer a low magic campaign to talk about what types of high-level, generic changes need to be made to make such a genre work within the confines of the system as it currently stands. As I said earlier, if you don't like this type of campaign, there's no reason to come in here and rain on anyone's parade. Obviously there are people who do like that, and (I, at least) don't want people jumping in and telling me that I'm not playing well, or I'd be able to just use the rules as presented and get the kind of game I want. That's just plain silly and it wastes everyone's time. If you don't have any constructive suggestions to offer, why do you have to fight the very idea that other folks may want to play that way?

 

[mmadsen]

Re: A good idea! Count me in.

I adapted the Star Wars RPG Force powers system which has magic users powering spells with their own vitality points--the more spells they cast, the more vulnerable they are.

I was wondering if anyone had done this yet.

The ability to cast spells requires the following: a "magical awakening feat," followed by a feat allowing one to cast spells of a particular school, followed by the expenditure of skill points in one of four skills per school. Each rank allows for the creation of one particular effect (which would be a particular spell).

Four skills per school? Is each school divided into four subschools then?

The creation of magic items involves a sacrifice of vitality. For one-use items, it is not a permanent loss, but for anything more powerful someone needs to give up some vitality points forever. Therefore, most magic items are either very minor or very powerful (the last act of an aging magician being to channel remaining life energy into some legacy device).

Oooh, neat idea...

I also employ a corruption mechanic similar to the Force rules. Any time someone uses magic that involves death energies (such as most necromancy spells) or the use of magic to directly harm someone or dominate their will, there is a chance for corruption. Too much corruption results in a gradual turning to selfishness, cruelty, and madness.

This ties in nicely with Ravenlofts concept of Power Checks and The Path of Corruption.

In the campaign, magic-users are viewed with fear and suspicion becuase so many of them go crazy. It's a feel I like, and I use the mechanics to reinforce it.

I always thought such mechanics could help explain why people feared wizards and why there are so many magical labyrinths and enchanted castles dotting the countryside.