Too much magic in DnD - lets do something about it !

[bramadan]

Reading this boards over last several months I have found out that there exists a substantial minority of DM's who have simmilar attitude to DnD and d20 to mine. This attitude is that it is a great system but that when it comes to fantasy it tends to lend itself to the somewhat peculiar, video-gamish, "magic as technology" feel.
Those of us who are concerned about this hope that it is possible to apply house rules in such a way as to force DnD into being more "believable" or "traditional" in a sense of classical myth and fantasy.

Many other people have claimed and probably rightfully so that this magic laden atmosphere is a feature of DnD, that DnD was built with that particular feel in mind and that sufficient tweeking of house rules to arrest that feel will hopelessly disjoint some of the fundamantal premises of the game. CR ratings and balance between the classes are frequently cited as the examples.

While I believe that this might be a case for DnD as such I am certain that it does not hold for d20 system at large. System that seems to be able to handle such a variety of genres from Star Wars and Space Opera through post-apocaliptic games to superhero games should certainly be able to accomodate the low-magic, grim and gritty, fantasy.

I am sure each of us who share this concern has found a number of things that need changing in DnD and have devised home solutions for those. What I am calling for is a sort of messageboard workshop where we can identify all the problems compare solutiuons and possibly work towards what I think should definitively be made: seriously low-magic d20 fantasy game.

This tread should serve to draw the attention of possible interested parties. Once we assemble we can move over to houserules or one of the other forumes and work there.
So, Reapersaurus, Simonski and all the others who are bothered by the high-magic nature of DnD, lets go and do something about it.

 

[Selfloathing]

I would recomend that you...

GO PLAY GURPS AND LEAVE ME ALONE.

 

[bramadan]

I happend not to like gurps and to like d20.
I also do not think I have disturbed you in any way unless just seeing words low magic and DnD in the same sentence in the title of the tread you are not forced to read is somehow insulting you, so I am not sure what am I supposed to do in order to leave *you* alone.

 

[S'mon]

I like the D&D 3e rules and I like running low-magic games. One thing I do is have fewer, weaker monsters than the 3e norm, generally conversions of old monsters without pumping them up the way many 3e monsters are (starting with those muscle-man orcs - orcs used to have STR 12).

BTW, no GM I know uses those wealth by level tables, in my experience most 4th level fighters are still running around in their 1st-level chain shirts...

My 2nd level Fighter was delighted last week when he got to strip a friend's corpse of his chain shirt to replace his own scalemail; although I had to pay 12gp to refit it, a serious dent in my funds...

 

[jollyninja]

i am such a person, i love that there are rules for creating magical items, i hate that it is possible at level one. prestige classes that give spell abilities to characters with no magical background irritate me endlessly (ie assassin) i think spell abilities are a cop out used by uncreative minds. just because a character in a book was capable of illusionary magic and was an assassin does not mean that all assassins can use magic. I wanted to scream when the forgotten realms book came out and gave both drizzt do'urden and artimus entreri spells. i'm a wheel of time guy, if someone wants to actually play a magic user in my game, they better be ready to kiss some butts or like being hunted or beaten.

 

[poilbrun]

I think the first things to rework would then be :

• Table 4-43: Highest-Level Locals (PC Classes) and 4-44: Highest-Level Locals (NPC Classes) : you need to have less spellcasting, and thus less people and weaker people.
• Table 5-1: Character Wealth by Level : if there are less magi items, characters should be less wealthy, or you'll end up with absurd quantities of gp lying in the PC castles!
• Tables 7-2: Treasure Values per Encounter and 7-4: Treasure : to be able to modify the previous point, you need to award less tresure from encounters, and as such, a rewrite of these tables is necessary.

However, I think the major change which needs to be made is in the tone of the description of the world. You should also limit the progression of spellcasting characters in your party. After all, why should your players be able to muster resources that cannot be mustered by NPC? There are several ways to do this : either set a flat-out interdiction to have a spellcasting class higher than level x (depending on your campaign), or you could simply say that no one gains automatic knowledge of spells, which means that each and every spell needs to be researched since no scrolls would be available and since the high-level spellcasters would probably not help someone who could become a rival.

I personally do not like low-magic setting, but as I had some spare time, I thought that I'd lend a hand!

 

[S'mon]

double post

 

[Selfloathing]

You're right...

If the topic bugs me, I just shouldn't read the thread.

Hrm. Now that I think about it, it might be kinda fun to try. So, here is my stopgap low magic D&D:

1. Bards lose spells, gain bonus feat every 4th level, +1d6 sneak attack every 5 levels.
2. No clerics, wizards, or sorcs as player characters. Use the NPC class. Perhaps give em a few bonus feats or skills. Depends on if you still want a magic using class to be a strong PC choice. If you realy want to be nasty, make them learn spells as a wizard.
3. I'm sure if you want low magic, you've already using an alt.ranger. Continue to do so.
4. Paladins are kind of tricky, in my mind. Honestly though, I don't think they lose much without spells. Perhaps if you were playing to 15. but most the time "low magic" also means "low level".
5. Watch what you throw at the party. Make it mostly humans and humanoids, try to keep the monsters rare. Oh, and FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, watch the stuff with DR. Undead would be tough as well, as they'll be low on people who can turn.
6. Doh, forgot druids. I'd say ban em as PCs along with the other primary casters, though you might consider changing them to some sort of "shapeshifter" class instead.

*PANT*
Done. Nothing too great, but that looks playable to me.

 

[poilbrun]

BTW, no GM I know uses those wealth by level tables, in my experience most 4th level fighters are still running around in their 1st-level chain shirts...

OK, you don't know me well, but I do... I like (very) high magic settings, as do my players. I think it mainly stems from the fact that the DMs with which I began playing RPGs liked (and still like) low-magic, and as such, I always wanted to have lots of magic. When I started DMing, I thus did what I liked, and offered lots of magic to the players. And now, even those who like low magic when they DM like playing with me. I believe it is simply because in the club in which I play, there are only 3 DMs : me who likes high-magic campaigns, a DM who likes low-magic campaigns, and a third DM who, I believe, would like high-magic campaigns, but usually stops his campaigns when the PCs are around level 5. He has wonderful ideas, but they usually involve starting from scratch. It does look like : ok, you're now level 5, but I've had a great idea, we could play in this world of which I made a conversion, ... And as he is one of the greatest DM when he likes what he does but not so when he doesn't (we always end up killed anyways : I remember losing my level 5 PC to a Great Wyrm White Dragon because "we did not do the dungeon in the logical order, which means we didn't get the objects that would have helped us dealing with the dragon"), we always start new campaigns!

 

[S'mon]

This is good stuff:

I think the first things to rework would then be :

• Table 4-43: Highest-Level Locals (PC Classes) and 4-44: Highest-Level Locals (NPC Classes) : you need to have less spellcasting, and thus less people and weaker people.
• Table 5-1: Character Wealth by Level : if there are less magi items, characters should be less wealthy, or you'll end up with absurd quantities of gp lying in the PC castles!
• Tables 7-2: Treasure Values per Encounter and 7-4: Treasure : to be able to modify the previous point, you need to award less tresure from encounters, and as such, a rewrite of these tables is necessary.

Personally I haven't found a need to alter anything in the PHB, although I'm planning to rule 0 touch-attack spells which currently break D&D 3e's own rules by allowing cast, move, & then attack in 1 round (standard, move, & standard actions together). Generally I haven't found PHB monks to overshadow fighters in a low magic game, and Sorcerors without bracers etc are vulnerable enough they don't overshadow the magic-less classes either. It's the stuff in the DMG that needs altering. Monster CRs need adjusting too, but that's not difficult - eg if an Ogre is as good as a 5th level PC fighter, it's CR 5.

The Highest-level Locals charts are a bit iffy for _any_ detailed setting, and I hate the idea of 15th level Commoners anyway. I use a different level breakdown, eg very few commoners over 3rd level. I allow character wealth by level to be lower, but don't worry about it much. I also allow PCs lots of roleplay XP, especially in PBEM games. I use the treasure tables for in-lair treasure, non-lair encounters get minimal or no treasure. Eg a group of 17 brigands had around 2d6 gp each, and that was on the high end. They also had nasty giant riding lizards who killed 3 PCs...