Too much magic in DnD - Lets fo something about it 2.

[mmadsen]

Frankly, I'm not as interested in rebalancing the spell-lists, as that still leaves me with Vancian magic, which I don't particularly like.

The sorcerer isn't Vancian. It still uses spell slots, but it doesn't require the preparation/memorization that defines Vancian Dying Earth magic.

If you don't like spell slots, just use power points (a la Psionics), with spells costing power points equal to effective caster level.

If you want to avoid spell slots and power points, require a spell roll of some kind (e.g. Spellcraft vs. DC 15 + effective caster level) to avoid something like:

• Ability Drain: -2 to all stats, or just the spellcasting stat (e.g. Int)
• Dark Side Points: eventually becoming a pawn of evil (or good!) outsiders
• Insanity Points: cumulative penalty to all non-spellcasting Int/Wis/Cha rolls, eventually becoming absent-minded, then insane

 

[kenjib]

Before anyone crafts the underlying rules behind a new non-Vancian magic system from whole cloth I'd like to point out some existing alternatives:

1. Psionic Handbook + If Thoughts Could Kill: Together these provide a complete mana system and conversion of all Player's Handbook and Eldritch Might spells. It includes solid rules for scaling damage on spells and slight alterations to some of the PHB spells to make the mathematics work more smoothly as spells scale up with different power costs. It's a completely trivial task to create a mana based wizard with the help of these rules - or if you want a change from the PHB spells you could just use the psionic rules straight up and call it magic instead of psionics, since it's purely a semantical difference.

2. Sovereign Stone: Skill based, manaless, slotless, casting with a potential for subdual damage. No artificial, contrived, mechanics to prevent you from casting spells all day long or to prevent access to higher level spells. It all flows very naturally. Magic is based on the four elements. There is also a void magic by which casting the more dark types of spells is dangerous. Bonus: Includes numerous other non-magical classes so you can eliminate paladins, rangers, etc. if you want.

3. Chaos Magic from Mongoose: A more freeform system of creating magical effects on the fly from different disciplines - damage, transportation, etc. Casting causes subdual damage.

4. Wild Magic from Natural 20 Press: Introduces randomness into casting spells and the potential for error.

5. Wheel of Time: Spell slot system with additional rules for weaving, overcasting, and a much more interesting and flavorful set of "schools" of magic, with rules for accessing them, etc. Bonus: Includes numerous other non-magical classes so you can eliminate paladins, rangers, etc. if you want.

6. Use the OA Shaman or DMG Witch spell lists for the wizard class: Available spells are more subtle, less flashy.

Published rules have a better chance of working with fewer problems since they are subject to a bit more scrutiny and, hopefully, playtesting. Maybe it's good to take advantage of what's already out there as a basis for what we're doing and then move on from there. It seems that some people have expressed a desire for magic that follows one or more of the models above.

My problem is that I want something very esoteric, hermetic, and occult, which is based heavily around the concept of unearthing ancient secrets. This isn't the focus of any of the above systems and that's why I proposed a different model, but for those whose needs might already be covered I'd really recommend looking at the above systems.

In addition, if anyone can suggest other systems which I left off, comment further on the suitability of any of these systems for low magic (I know people have mentioned it before as well), or correct any misconceptions I have of the above, please chime in.

 

[mmadsen]

My problem is that I want something very esoteric, hermetic, and occult, which is based heavily around the concept of unearthing ancient secrets.

If that's what you want, why don't you just make all spells unknown (and unresearchable in the mundane sense) but available to intrepid adventurers who seek out ancient texts in long buried tombs and ruined temples?

This combines nicely with an alternate experience system for wizards: they get experience (and new spells) by finding ancient texts.

Evil wizards can gain spells more directly from demons -- at a price.

 

[Victim]

If you want to make majic more mysterious, make its creation more difficult, and perhaps weaken it slightly, I've got an idea.

1) All permanent magic items are intelligent.

2) Spellbooks are now magic items. See #1.

3) Sorcerers must have a patron

Intelligent items are much more difficult to create (minimum +10k base cost) and are generally anything but reliable because they're controled by someone else. Also, since that someone else has been trapped inside a item for who knows how long, unable to move, they may not be entirely sane.

If the item's powers are controled by the DM (ie, no special purpose, 2 extraordinary powers, and one primary power items), then magic items become more rare and potentially more flavorful.

Spellbooks that are intelligent magic items might have personalities based of the spells scribed therein, and grow stronger as more spells and more powerful spells are scribed. Careless wizards might end up becoming controled by their own spellbooks. You might want to check out the Wishsong of Shanara to get a better understanding of this point. Just read the climax in the bookstore if you're cheap, lazy, don't really like the Shanara books or any combination of the above.

 

[kenjib]

If that's what you want, why don't you just make all spells unknown (and unresearchable in the mundane sense) but available to intrepid adventurers who seek out ancient texts in long buried tombs and ruined temples?

This combines nicely with an alternate experience system for wizards: they get experience (and new spells) by finding ancient texts.

Evil wizards can gain spells more directly from demons -- at a price.

If you just require spells to be discovered and/or researched all esoteric traditions still follow the same rules and fall under the same body of knowledge. Take some real world historical examples of mystical traditions: Kabballah, Wicca, medieval alchemy, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Order of Simon Magus, Judaic Prophets, the Rites of Osiris, the Cult of Dyonisis, Masonry, the Rosicrucians, palmistry, tarot, Chinese turtle shell/fire divination, druidism, Christian concepts of witchcraft and possession, etc. Knowledge in one tradition does not translate to knowledge in another. They are all distinct and separate bodies of knowledge that all serve distinct and different purposes. In addition, they are all tied to certain cultures and ways of thought.

I like magic that can be splintered into many differents ways of using it, and having an entry requirement to gain access to different ways. Each different way has a distinctive flavor and set of powers (i.e. spells) that comes with it. A particular person may know more than one method and may have different levels of power in them. He may be a master of alchemy and also have some familiarity with Kaballah, of which he is quickly learning more. Under my system it translates to a character like this:

Occult Mage - level 8
feats: Occult Tradition (Alchemy), Occult Tradition (Kaballah), others...
skills: Occult Lore (Alchemy) 14 (11 ranks), Occult Lore (Kaballah) 9 (6 ranks), others...

This grants him access to 4th level and lower spells from the alchemy list and 2nd level and lower from the Kaballah list. I think that this idea makes magic more obscure, esoteric, and mysterious by giving it more rich cultural overtones and also by introducing more setting specific plot hooks for power hungry magi. Instead of "must find more spells," we suddenly have "must find a copy of the ancient book: Principis du Materia, which holds the secrets of alchemy," or "must seek admittance to the Temple of Tsa to learn the secrets of the Tsa Shapers - they say I must pass three tests to gain admittance to the order and be taught it's secrets: The test of purity of mind, the test of purity of body, and the test of purity of soul." Sure, you could fudge something like this with the current rules but the rules don't really provide a mechanism for these kinds of ideas to have any concrete impact on a character. In mine, access to groups of spells is limited by feats, which serves to require that a person learn a given tradition in order to gain access to the corresponding spell list, and skills, which provides a mechanism by which a person may have differing levels of ability in multiple traditions and thus differing levels of access to higher level spells within a given spell list.

It's nice to have the game mechanics in alignment with the game, rather than handling these things vaguely and without any rules to guide them. Without a set of rules and expectations it becomes arbitrary and perhaps frustrating to players.

Does anyone else find this concept useful? So far I'm alone on it so I suppose it's just another reflection of the point made many times that we're all looking for something different and that the goal of this thread is perhaps too vague

 

[Desdichado]

Also sprach mmadsen:
If you don't like spell slots, just use power points (a la Psionics), with spells costing power points equal to effective caster level.

If you want to avoid spell slots and power points, require a spell roll of some kind (e.g. Spellcraft vs. DC 15 + effective caster level) to avoid something like:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's what I've done and I've mentioned it a few times in this (and the last thread.) Right now, the suitably subtle effect I want is easily obtainable with the Star Wars force users system. The Force Adept I can take as is, and the Jedi Consular I can take by simply replacing the lightsaber with another "arcanish" special ability: I'll probably raid Tome and Blood for ideas here. Psionics is also an option I like as a replacement for magic, as is the Wheel of Time system. However, Wheel of Time is probably a bit too closely tied to the setting and all my players will likely recognize it.

kenjib:
2. Sovereign Stone: Skill based, manaless, slotless, casting with a potential for subdual damage. No artificial, contrived, mechanics to prevent you from casting spells all day long or to prevent access to higher level spells. It all flows very naturally. Magic is based on the four elements. There is also a void magic by which casting the more dark types of spells is dangerous. Bonus: Includes numerous other non-magical classes so you can eliminate paladins, rangers, etc. if you want.

Is this available in the Sovereign Stone campaign setting for d20? I'd like some more info on this system, as it also sounds like something I'd like.

kenjib again:
Published rules have a better chance of working with fewer problems since they are subject to a bit more scrutiny and, hopefully, playtesting. Maybe it's good to take advantage of what's already out there as a basis for what we're doing and then move on from there. It seems that some people have expressed a desire for magic that follows one or more of the models above.

Well, I've already mentioned it, but you left Star Wars off the list, and it's "magic" with a little renaming looks like it could be a really good alternative for a low magic system. And, as you said, those classes are already balanced with classes that look a lot like PHB classes but without the assumptions of the aquisition of loads of magic items/weapons/armor. Therefore, the kind of low magic feel I want is easily already built in and I don't have to rewrite anything except a few class and power names.

 

[Desdichado]

Also sprach kenjib:
I like magic that can be splintered into many differents ways of using it, and having an entry requirement to gain access to different ways. Each different way has a distinctive flavor and set of powers (i.e. spells) that comes with it. A particular person may know more than one method and may have different levels of power in them. He may be a master of alchemy and also have some familiarity with Kaballah, of which he is quickly learning more. Under my system it translates to a character like this:

It sounds like what you really are looking for (to me) is a number of mage prestige classes, and simply an expert (focusing on research, with maybe some really minor spell-like abilities) base class that is designed solely to enter these prestige classes. It's odd that you mention this when the other major thread I'm reading right now is the prestige class thread that goes in depth on what prestige classes are intended for. Your example is a textbook case.

 

[kenjib]

It sounds like what you really are looking for (to me) is a number of mage prestige classes, and simply an expert (focusing on research, with maybe some really minor spell-like abilities) base class that is designed solely to enter these prestige classes. It's odd that you mention this when the other major thread I'm reading right now is the prestige class thread that goes in depth on what prestige classes are intended for. Your example is a textbook case.

That's a good point and I hadn't thought of that approach. However, do you like the way that prestige classes and caster levels interact? I can't think of a good model for getting something like this to work very well. The problem is that each prestige class either has it's own spell progression list, which really cripples spell casters and is a bit of a balance problem (usually on the underpowered side) since you can start taking the prestige class at a wide range of levels but the power of the spell progression is fixed, or you do the +1 of existing class thing, which does not allow you to have different skill levels in different areas.

Why do you feel that using skills is less appropriate? A rogue can learn different tools - pick pocket, open locks, disable device - as she advances and know them all at different levels of expertise. That's more of the kind of feel I wanted.

Since you've brought it up, though, I do agree that prestige classes ideally are the game mechanic that seems best suited toward this, but with the way that they are actually implemented in the rules I just don't see it working very well. What do you think?

P.S. Sorry that I forgot about the force.
P.P.S. The Sovereign Stone rules are in the sourcebook and there is also another book just on the magic system with tons more info. I don't have the book and I haven't played it although I've been considering getting it lately the more I think about it. I was trying to give the best description that I could and I might have misrepresented something.

 

[Desdichado]

kenjib:
That's a good point and I hadn't thought of that approach. However, do you like the way that prestige classes and caster levels interact? I can't think of a good model for getting something like this to work very well. The problem is that each prestige class either has it's own spell progression list, which really cripples spell casters and is a bit of a balance problem (usually on the underpowered side) since you can start taking the prestige class at a wide range of levels but the power of the spell progression is fixed, or you do the +1 of existing class thing, which does not allow you to have different skill levels in different areas.

I agree the implementation of prestige classes in the various WotC publications (and others) hasn't been the best, and even Monte Cook (co-creator of the concept) says that it's been done poorly. He's got a "prestige class creation workshop" on his site that you might check out. What it sounds like you want to me is an expert-ish base class that has little (if any) spell-casting ability and all spell-casting ability is dependent on picking up a prestige class which represents delving into the mysteries of some hermetic tradition or another. For this reason, I'd make the requirements for picking up levels fairly low (you don't want spell-casters languishing in a pre-spellcasting class for too long, after all) and all spellcasting ability dependent on following the tradition (taking levels of the class.) I'd also make the abilities dependent on continuing advancement in the tradition: someone who tries to pick up levels of Masonic Caster (to use a quick and dirty example) becomes an ex-Wiccan Caster, for example and loses his abilities from the former class.

Doing it this way, you can make each tradition follow it's own rules entirely, and progression work however you want to. You can even adapt existing classes (like sovereign stone void magician, or whatever) as prestige classes by giving them roleplaying requirements of some kind.

Why do you feel that using skills is less appropriate? A rogue can learn different tools - pick pocket, open locks, disable device - as she advances and know them all at different levels of expertise. That's more of the kind of feel I wanted.

I don't. My solution that I'm working up is based on the Star Wars Force usage, which is skill-based. I must not have stated myself clearly.

Since you've brought it up, though, I do agree that prestige classes ideally are the game mechanic that seems best suited toward this, but with the way that they are actually implemented in the rules I just don't see it working very well. What do you think?

Well, you'd have to write all the classes from scratch, which would be a tough job. You could make a more basic mage/researcher/expert class that does some basic research, and once he finds his first magical tome, or participates in his first magical rites with some other members of his "prestige organization." As implemented currently, prestige classes have some problems, but since you'd probably have to make up the classes on your own, that's not really an issue: just be sure not to repeat the mistakes others have made!

P.S. Sorry that I forgot about the force.

No problem, I don't take it personally! It's unfortunate, though, as it's a great low-magic mechanic that only really requires some name changes to implement. From the sound of it, there's some real close parallels between the Force and the Sovereign Stone system, though, at a basic level.

P.P.S. The Sovereign Stone rules are in the sourcebook and there is also another book just on the magic system with tons more info. I don't have the book and I haven't played it although I've been considering getting it lately the more I think about it. I was trying to give the best description that I could and I might have misrepresented something.

I just went and read some reviews of it. Sounds like an underutilized and underappreciated gem for folks who like their fantasy the way I do! The SS Stalker (sounds like some kind of Nazi, doesn't it?) sounds like it might be another great alt.ranger too, for that matter.

 

[bramadan]

It's nice to have the game mechanics in alignment with the game, rather than handling these things vaguely and without any rules to guide them. Without a set of rules and expectations it becomes arbitrary and perhaps frustrating to players.

Does anyone else find this concept useful? So far I'm alone on it so I suppose it's just another reflection of the point made many times that we're all looking for something different and that the goal of this thread is perhaps too vague

What you are talking about is EXACTLY what I want to see. I like your ocult magus but believe that even better result can be achieved with treating each separate tradition as a separate (prestige) class with its own spell-list, perks and drawbacks. People who wish to generalize can multiclass but have to sattisfy the skill and feat prerequisites.

BTW there is a proposal for those of you who wish to stick with regular wizard but do not like quick multiclassing into wizards. Make certain ammount of ranks in Spellcraft and Arcane Lore prereq for multiclassing into wizard and that way you simulate necessary studying time (at least partialy). Ditto for Ranger, make certain Wilderness Lore and what not preq for multiclassing into them and you get rid of the whole lot of people who multiclass into Ranger just for its front loaded stuff....