Too much magic in DnD - Lets fo something about it 2.

mmadsen said:


Ideally, I think all the spellcasting classes should be mechanically identical, just with different spell lists. That is, they could all be mechanically the same as the Sorcerer (or whatever) but with a mega-Domain of spells.

I agree that there should be simmilarities but I also think that they should all have their quirks and idiosyncrasies. Some should emphasise the consequences (Demonologist, Necromancer...) and should therefore get more raw power in the short term others should be more pedestrian.
I know that much of that can be adressed in the spells but some might also be included in the class abilities...
I will try to at least finish the very basic draft for the Necromancer before the end of the evening so as to show what they could look like...

On that note I love stealing ideas and I stole any from the Mongoose "Necromancy" book. Do you guys have that book or should I describe whatever I used from there independetly ?
 

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I suppose Step 1 and 2 could be integrated into each other....it's just that I have trouble thinking of a wizard without Read Magic because it isn't on his spell list. There should probably be a few things that anyone with the capacity in magic could do.

There's no reason Read Magic has to be a spell. Anyone with any skill in Spellcraft, for instance, could be expected to read a spellbook. Or, to fit the scholarly theme we're going for, anyone who can read the language the book's written in and makes a Spellcraft roll can decipher what the spell is.

Then, with some research, he can cast the spell from the text -- but only with the book in front of him, taking plenty of time and automatically failing any forced Concentration checks.

Only when he gains another spellcasting level can he add it to his spells known and cast it normally (whatever that may be in your "low magic" game world).
 

mmadsen said:


Ideally, I think all the spellcasting classes should be mechanically identical, just with different spell lists. That is, they could all be mechanically the same as the Sorcerer (or whatever) but with a mega-Domain of spells.

That _is_ the sorcerer, in practice.
 

That _is_ the sorcerer, in practice.

Except that each Prestige Class would have a specific, tightly-linked spell list, not whatever spells the Sorcerer's player thinks would make a neat/powerful combination.
 

mmadsen said:


Except that each Prestige Class would have a specific, tightly-linked spell list, not whatever spells the Sorcerer's player thinks would make a neat/powerful combination.

Every well-played sorcerer should have a theme in mind, whether it's the boom-spell guy, the sneaky guy, or the buff-up guy.
 

From the old thread:
Speaking of doing something can we try to compile the list of the "offending" spells and possibly even of thg spells that need to be introduced to create the low-magic feel.

Offenders (so far from what has been mentioned here:

-Most of Evocation school
-Invisibility (at least Improved version)
-Fly
-Teleport
-Raise Dead (in all of its incarnations)
...
please add more.
These spells were collected in my December post that brought up this topic.
I have them listed on my House Rules page - link in sig (hope it's updated)

Hong - I was suprised at your posts in the old thread saying, and defending your statement that without magic, an 15th level fighter becomes a demi-god.

That statement leads me to believe you really don;t understand the problem that magic presents.

Withoout magic, a PC really isnlt all that powerful,
Sure, he can take damage, and with feats he do some stuff.
But I'd wager that a pack of villagers with SOME reasonable support could take him down.

And simple stuff like a drawbridge makes it so his power is nullified.

Magic CAN'T be nullified, or its effects dodged.

Every example of ways to deal with magic with the current rule-set involve the inclusion of MORE magic to combat it.
 

My Solution

Well, this is the solution that I came up with and used for a low-magic world a while back. We played in this campaign for a little over four months before all of the PCs were slaughtered by bears. (Yes, just normal bears.)

1) Ken Hood's Grim'n'Gritty Rules.

2) Paladin becomes a PrC. He gets more smites/day, no spells. They must have the "Inherent Magical Talent" feat, weapon specialization, and match the alignment of their deity. Any alignment, within the restriction that it must match that of the paladin's deity, was allowed. Evil paladins were referred to as anti-paladins, and replaced the blackguard. Detect Evil became Detect Infidel, smite evil become smite infidel, etc. and these powers worked on anyone diametrically opposed to the paladin's alignment (Good vs. evil, Lawful vs. chaotic, and neutral gods' followers chose to smite either good or evil).

3) Ranger replaced by the Woodsman from Wheel of Time. Bard modified to have no spells but get Bardic Music, Bardic Lore, and a 1/4 levels sneak attack progression. Assassin and other prestige classes that use magic altered to not use magic.

4) Expert Class -- The expert gets an average bonus HP progression and must choose a "theme" at first level. Then he selects ten skills as his class skill list, which must all center around his theme. This class is VERY useful for almost any kind of NPC, and it's a good PC class as it is the fastest way to get into the spell-casting PrCs. At six + INT skill points per level, it was relatively popular, too. Experts also got a skill similar to bardic lore, but could only use it on questions within their area of expertise.

5) Added a 1st-level only feat "Inherent Magical Talent" that was required for monks, druids, clerics, and wizards. (This helped balance monks in the low-magic world, costing them one feat.)

6) Druid, Cleric, and Wizard classes are PrCs. Each one requires 8 ranks in the appropriate Knowledge skill and the Inherent Magical Talent feat. Only those who start in the Expert Class can get all the spells (exception: A woodsman can become a druid with all the spells.) Without changing much, I just converted the existing classes to 15 level PrCs.

7) A caster gets a number of spell points equal to their caster level plus their modifier for the primary score. A first level spell costs one point, etc. Metamagic costs extra points, but does NOT change the level of the spell. (So a wizard only capable of 1st level spells can still use metamagic.) Also, magic save DCs were slightly bumped upward -- the save was given by 10 + spell level + primary atrribute modifier + secondary attribute modifiers, averaged. (Thus, for a wizard, it was 10 + spell level + Int mod + ((Cha. mod + Wis mod)/2) Not as complicated as it sounds since you only calculate it once and something of a bonus for the difficulty of learning magic in the first place).

8) Added the overchanneling system from Wheel of Time for when the caster was out of spell points. Each attempt to overchannel caused fatigue (subdual damage) equal to 2/level of the spell attempted. However, a caster with good skills could overchannel a LOT of low-level spells before he had too much subdual damage to continue.

9) All spells raised by one level -- cantrips become 1st level spells, etc. Any spell that does direct damage to the target is also increased by one level. Thus, fireball becomes a fifth level spell. Magic Missile was completely removed, in favor of "Chest Pains" which had a somewhat similar effect but allowed a saving throw. The highest level spells in the game are fifth level spells. (Keep in mind, though, that under the G'n'G rules, a fireball could decimate a level 20 warrior if the caster rolled average or better on the the damage.) A large number of low-level curses and hexes were added that had little to no combat effect but were a lot of fun to play with.

10) A magic-user can cast a level of spells equal to his number of ranks in the appropriate Knowledge skill divided by 4. Thus, an Expert5/Wizard1 (Wizard requires 8 ranks of Knowledge Arcana) is capable of casting a 2nd level spell, but only has one spellpoint -- so he has to overchannel to cast to the limit of his ability.

11) Spellcraft roll on casting a spell -- DC equal to the level of the spell squared + 10. Thus a first level spell is 11, whereas a fifth level spell is 35. (By the time the caster can handle a 5th level spell, however, that is about a 50% chance to successfully cast the spell.)

12) Casting classes received varied numbers of spells. Druids got three spells/level, clerics got two spells per level (one of which had to be a domain spell, until they had all from their domain for that level), and wizards only got one spell per level. All of the casters could learn more spells by observing them used and making a successful spellcraft check.

13) Potions based on Alchemy, rather than magic. High level alchemical recipes required truly bizarre ingredients (One I remember off the top of my head is the left-hand of a murdered woman -- bonus points if anyone knows THAT reference).

14) Finally, in keeping with the G'n'G system, I adopted a modified version of the Wheel of Time healing system -- healing a person converted the damage to subdual damage. Subdual damage could then heal normally. I also brought over the "Refresh" line of spells, that suppresses fatigue for a while -- you can ignore some amount of subdual damage, but when the spell duration is up you actually end up with MORE subdual damage than you started with. This proved to be quite a boon to my casters, since they could suppress their fatigue long enough to toss off a few extra spells before they collapsed from exhaustion.

----------------

It turned into a really fun campaign, mostly using other humans as villains. Magic was still very, very powerful -- but with the G'n'G system making it so hard to survive to high levels, it was also very, very rare.

And that's what *I* want when I talk about a low-magic campaign. :)
 

wolff96:
Well, this is the solution that I came up with and used for a low-magic world a while back. We played in this campaign for a little over four months before all of the PCs were slaughtered by bears. (Yes, just normal bears.)
Dude, that ROCKS! Four months of play ended because of a few bears! I haven't heard anything that funny yet today! One of the joys of the Grim-n-Gritty, I guess. I'm thinking of using that along with some Dragonstar weapons and a homebrew xenomorph template to make some really short lived characters.
wolff96 again:
It turned into a really fun campaign, mostly using other humans as villains. Magic was still very, very powerful -- but with the G'n'G system making it so hard to survive to high levels, it was also very, very rare.

And that's what *I* want when I talk about a low-magic campaign.
Me too. A lot of folks have said that the balance between PCs and monsters will be thrown way off with low magic, but I'm not really the kind of guy who likes to use a lot of monsters, really. The balance between the PCs and NPC antagonists isn't a problem if both are using the same set of rules.

That said, I probably won't use the grim-n-gritty for more than one-off games. I'd rather use the vitality/wound system, where critical hits are extremely dangerous, but otherwise they encourage some heroics from the characters.
 


bramadan said:


It would be great to have him onboard. But do I sense concensus ? Kenjib, are you interested in working on this stuff ? How about others ?
I am currently working on Necromancer which I will soon present as an example of how I think those classes should look like. We can then take him apart and work from there... In the mean time if any of you write any other classes please share...

Hi Bramadan and good morning from gloomy Seattle. I can't wait for spring!

I'd be happy to contribute to this concept. I do have a few reservations though:

1. Spells scaling at one spell level per class level is a potential problem. Assuming entry requirements restrict spell casting classes to begin taking levels around 3-5 you still have people casting 9th level spells at level 12-14. This is more than a bit troublesome for me. Furthermore, re-orienting all of the spell levels to a slower power increase is probably far beyond the scope of effort that we can reasonably expect towards producing finished and usable results.

2. Not allowing characters to start casting spells until they get to 4-6 level is great conceptually from a DM's standpoint, but I don't think that it sounds very fun from a player's standpoint. Basically with the scholar class you are forcing someone to play a certain character that they may or may not want to play for a good amount of time before they can actually do what they want. I would like people to be able to take one of these PRCs starting at 1st level. Perhaps a special provision could work - in order to take this class you must meet all of the following requirements OR you may waive these requirements and take this class at first level.

3. This works good for certain scenarios but not for others. I like the concept of a caster who is highly knowledgable in the arts of necromancy, divination, and the secret lore of the Lahani Fatespinners, for example. With a PRC system people are highly encouraged to only follow one path and stick with it. With a skill based system people are highly encouraged to follow several paths. I think that both concepts have a place and I wonder if a system can't accomodate both a little better.

That said, what I like about a modular magic system like this is that it's not just a low magic system. It can still create high magic characters as well, just by making different traditions with different spell lists. It's far more flexible than the PHB casters and more suited to homebrews because it allows people to pick and choose what fits their world - or create new ones integrated into the world history (and with powers designed to reflect this).

In any case, I'd be more than happy to add some new classes with spell lists into the mix, however the system turns out. Ultimately all of this discussion is of much less value if some nice, productive, concrete, and ready-to-play material does not result from this. A netbook would be nice.
 

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