Too much magic in DnD - Lets fo something about it 2.

[TheMan]

Here we are yet again

It is simply amazing how many threads are started that deal with balance issues. What a lot of people don't seem to grasp is the concept that balance is relative. Balance largely focuses on the enviroment of the campaign that the DM establishes and maintains. The complaint that there is too much magic or that the class system is unbalanced depends on the campaign that the DM has provided. What you are really complaining about is that the rules don't fit what YOU want to do, so instead of fashioning the campaign to balance the characters, you fashion the characters to balance the campaign.

How do I limit magic in my campaign and increase the utility of the fighters?
1) Limit the time wizards have to do research or scribe spells by evolving a campaign that is constantly forcing the characters to react to their enviroment.

2) Limit sorcerers by limiting access to spell components. More smaller skirmishes during a day will force the sorcerer to spread out their firepower.

3) Increase the number of creatures with magic resistance or better saving throws. If you can't find a creature that already has it, make your own.

4) etc.

What further irritates me is DMs complaining about characters leveling to fast. Last time I checked, DMs are the ones that determine and award experience - you are creating your own dilemma!

If you want to adjust the system to fit your campaign, that is fine - more power to you, that is what role playing is all about. There is little need however to complain that th rules don't fit exactly what you want or expect. I have participated in excellent campaigns on both sides of the spectrum and I have to tell you that the more limiting the house rules, the less fun I have had. The best games are those led by DMs who adjust to the characters, maximizing every party members utility by creating unique situations and encounters.

 

[Arthur Tealeaf]

BlaH

Here are my suggestions/"wants & wishes":

(remember: these suggestions are probably defunct in every "balance" issue out there. They are for people who don't that much about their stats but more about role-playing aspects.)

These suggestions are also NOT for dungeon crawl and similar games!

• To start out: Hong, your suggestion about low level play certainly works out well, but what if I want players who can kill an orc behind 9/10 cover with one arrow from 200 feet, but still can't jump from 10th floor of a building and then walts through 200 orcs with one hand? I want supa-skilled players who still fear 20 mad commoners with scythes, because they actually might get killed !! I solve this with Ken Hoods grim-n-gritty system, downloadable here . (These rules also support called shots. Wheee!)
• I don't really want low-magic, but I want magic to be special. Ways to support this:
  -away with sorcerers. Magic in your blood is very special, only innately magically creatures can be sorcerers (to me, elves master magic well, they don't have it their blood). Suddenly, that half-dragon sorcerer is much more special.
  -Modify the classes with only small magical powers (Rangers, Paladins etc.). I won't go further into this, because it's an endless discussion.
  -Wizards need to study magic all their life to be able to use it. No "looking over Mialee's shoulder as she prepares her spells" multiclassing.
  -Magic Items harder to create. Special components are needed, and very special formulas need to be researched to create them. Just because you meet the prerequisites doesn't need you know how to create an item. Maybe only elves know the formulas needed for boots of elvenkind... Usually, everyone makes racial magic items with no problem. Now this might be a problem unless you have a very close connection with that particular race.
  -Wizards can only be specialist wizards and can only cast spells from their school. Other schools require multiclassing (5th level Evoker, 2nd level diviner...). Now that necromancer is much more special, he can't just cast an extra necromancy spell every day! This might create balance issues (i.e. evokers much more powerful than diviners), but only when it comes to combat. A diviner wouldn't wade into combat like an evoker would anyway. Things are somehow balanced with the fact that everyone have very little hit points in the grim-n-gritty system (except for the big monsters).
  -No race has wizard as a favored class.
  -XP penalties for multiclass wizards no matter how close levels are to eachother (to reflect the difficulty of magic. Magic should be harder to wield than a longsword...)
  -levelled magic items might be a good idea, but I haven't thought that one thoroughly through yet.
  -Clerics. Eh... I don't really know about that one, but it would be fun to create a new system based entirely on channelling positive/negative energy (or for neutral clerics: a little of both). It would make divine powers stand out from arcane, just as I think they should. (somebody suggested this earlier on. Thanx 4 the idea!!!!!!)
  -Spells need to mean more than just stats! Many ideas have been presented for solving this. Another is to just allow the players to influence spell effects by inventing on the fly, allowing the DM to modify suggestions so they don't break the game. Examples might include letting the fireball be cast on an apple, then throwing the apple immediately, letting the fireball blow up when it impacts. This was a minor one, but what is allowed would be up to the individual DM.
  -Another way would be to divide each school to be divided into different subclasses, then let the player improvise effects based on these using existing spells as guidelines. Example: Evocation [fire] - "I cast a fire evocation where I want this torch to explode into a round burst of fire with a 10 ft. radius where i throw it." This might be time consuming, though, but if refined it might work. Also, you would prepare spells by shool and subschool instead of individual spells (2 fire [evocation], 3 abjuration [force] etc.)
  -Spell point system and/or spell rolls. These both help removing the static feel of magic, which makes it less fantasyish (in MY opinion). Also maybe the ability to cast unlimited spells per day, although you are worn down by it (subdual damage) or have other ill effects when to much casting is performed.
  -Advancing as a wizard requires a lot of research and materials, requiring libraries, environs with good resources etc. No "backwater wizards", only wizards near established cities or the like (except the travelling or settled/retired ones).
  -"Magic Shops" only sell spellbooks, parchment, empty scrools, ink, material components and other non-magical mage-accessories. Scrolls and potions might be available in very specialized shops though.
  -Magic items are usually old and have histories behind them. Possible to contract wizards for creating magic items, but the dirty work (gathering components and such) must be done by the PCs. If special formulas are needed, the players might need to help research these, or maybe wizards only will make stuff they already have the formulas for.
• The challenge rating problem could be solved by thinking properly through every encounter before running it. Believe me, it works!

Now Im sick of writing!

Excuse me while I go play with my cats...

 

[Desdichado]

It is simply amazing how many threads are started that deal with balance issues. What a lot of people don't seem to grasp is the concept that balance is relative. Balance largely focuses on the enviroment of the campaign that the DM establishes and maintains. The complaint that there is too much magic or that the class system is unbalanced depends on the campaign that the DM has provided. What you are really complaining about is that the rules don't fit what YOU want to do, so instead of fashioning the campaign to balance the characters, you fashion the characters to balance the campaign.

Yes, it is. This thread is not one of them. This thread is about changing the genre of the games, and balance only affects it as we discuss how balance might get out of whack by changing the genre of the game. Therefore, your comment about changing the campaign to balance the characters is pretty innapropriate given the stated goals of the originators of the thread.

What further irritates me is DMs complaining about characters leveling to fast. Last time I checked, DMs are the ones that determine and award experience - you are creating your own dilemma!

Yeah, I agree. However, some players expect the experience to follow the DMG tables. If they don't, you can have unhappy players, as much as I think that shouldn't be an issue. This very thing practically shut down my last group, as I let out that I had given less experience than the tables indicated because I thought the PCs breezed through a few encounters.

If you want to adjust the system to fit your campaign, that is fine - more power to you, that is what role playing is all about. There is little need however to complain that th rules don't fit exactly what you want or expect. I have participated in excellent campaigns on both sides of the spectrum and I have to tell you that the more limiting the house rules, the less fun I have had. The best games are those led by DMs who adjust to the characters, maximizing every party members utility by creating unique situations and encounters.

Nobody's complaining in this thread: this thread is all about how to smoothly make those kinds of adjustments.

 

[LostSoul]

Here are my desires:

1) A magic system that is powerful but rare (only in the hands of the PCs and major NPCs) and carries great risks with its use.

2) A magic system that is subtle and mystical.

3) Some way to maintain the balance between spell-users and the mundane classes.

Solutions floating around in my head:

1) Throw in some kind of "dark side" points or "madness checks". Make magic the domain of people with the proper "blood" or those who sell thier souls. (hmm... interesting commentary on aristocrats.)

2) Change the spell lists. Remove some, change the level of others. Add more. Introduce new ways of casting spells; for instance, a class (or feat) that specializes in summoning creatures or throwing curses.

3) ?

 

[Darklone]

Spellcasting

Some ideas:

- To have low magic, you don't need to change much. Simply confront the players with less magic than last campaign.

- If you want rules for spellcasting that makes them harder, I don't like the subdual damage idea. Fighter wizards or barbarian wizards are too good that way. Why not let them take temporary INT damage if they fail their spellcraft check to cast a spell? THAT would cut the spellslingers down.

- Best thing IMHO to balance spellcasting: Use less clerics, take away their armours, don't give wizards new spells for new levels and don't let sorcerers and bards learn the spells at once. Give clerics only the spells on their list that look fine for their gods. This gives you the possibility to award players with new spells while keeping them away from others. Skip druids. Use adepts instead. Limit their spells too. Simply skip the ranger and paladin spellcasting and give them perhaps a smite more or more skillpoints.

- forgot to add: Skip creating magical items except scrolls and potions for players.

 

[rounser]

[detour]
What people are describing as requirements here is a bill fitted by Ars Magica....
[/detour]

 

[Bastoche]

To Joshua: I mostly agree with your comment on my posts, it only seems to me that I was unclear, since your comment doesn't seem to me to be antithesis to what I said.

Here are my desires:

1) A magic system that is powerful but rare (only in the hands of the PCs and major NPCs) and carries great risks with its use.

2) A magic system that is subtle and mystical.

3) Some way to maintain the balance between spell-users and the mundane classes.

Solutions floating around in my head:

1) Throw in some kind of "dark side" points or "madness checks". Make magic the domain of people with the proper "blood" or those who sell thier souls. (hmm... interesting commentary on aristocrats.)

2) Change the spell lists. Remove some, change the level of others. Add more. Introduce new ways of casting spells; for instance, a class (or feat) that specializes in summoning creatures or throwing curses.

3) ?

Now this I like.

I would add that:

- mundane classes shouldn't change and should set the standard for balance issues, considering they they will get few if any magical items. (Monk could be problematic. The simple solution is to dicard the class. The complicated way would be make it PrC and/or feat chain to replace the class and make it a fighter)

- Classes with low spell casting ability (Bard, Paladin and Ranger) might or should be adjusted. Bard and Paladin could, for exemple, become a PrC requiring fighter, rogue, druid and wizard level (think 1E bard) and paladin require cleric levels.

- School needs restructuration. Some suggestions: Demonic, Necromantic (with more, new spells please !!!), spirit and nature/elemental schools. And ritual or circle magic (i.e. with long spellcasting time).

- For the dark side, I would prefer direct negative conscequences instead of a probability that it doesn't work (like a skill check). Or maybe an hybrid: Make the skill check, if succesful, the spell is cast normaly and suffer the conscequences (Con ability damage and/or subdual) if the check fails, nothing happens. Or sometthing like that.

- High level spell casters should have access to very powerful (althouth very taxing !!!) spells.

- No spellcasters level limits since this goes against the previous point.

Well just some new ideas.

I Conclude after a little reflexion that it's near to impossible the modify the magic level without requiring major reconstruction of the core classes...

 

[SonOfLilith]

If you don't want high-magic campains, then don't run them. No one is forcing you play with spells flying everywhere. If you don't like something in a rule book, or don't think something is balanced, then change it.

A perfect example is my group in shadowrun. They felt that magic really didn't fit into the whole feel of my campain. So I scratched it. Click, no more magic. And everyone was fine with it.

If you do decide to cut down on magic, make sure monsters do the same. Don't run a low magic camapin with every other monster you see have damage reduction 10/+1, and be able to cast fireball.

 

[LostSoul]

(Monk could be problematic. The simple solution is to dicard the class. The complicated way would be make it PrC and/or feat chain to replace the class and make it a fighter)

I'd rather see the Monk's abilities replaced by feats, but I actually think the Monk works well in a low-magic game. Sure, they can jump, stun, fall, etc.; but nothing is flashy or over the top. Is a Monk without magic balanced with a Fighter without magic? (Maybe all you'd need to do is change the unarmed attack damage to a base 1d6 that does not grow. That front loads the class, though.)

I'd also like to take the Psychic Warrior and shift the powers list around so divinations are lower-level and the stronger combat powers are higher level. I'd also get rid of some of the psionic feats (like Deep Impact).

 

[LostSoul]

- For the dark side, I would prefer direct negative conscequences instead of a probability that it doesn't work (like a skill check). Or maybe an hybrid: Make the skill check, if succesful, the spell is cast normaly and suffer the conscequences (Con ability damage and/or subdual) if the check fails, nothing happens. Or sometthing like that.

Having to make a Will Save might be a good mechanic, one that fits with the theme.