Too soon to daydream about Heroic-only Campaign?

[malraux]

No dog in this fight anymore, but what sort of tweaks do y'all think it will require to run a "long lasting" campaign in E10? I ask because Keep on the Shadowfell is supposed to level a party all the way up to 3rd. 2 levels in one module! At that rate you hit the level cap after about 5 adventures.

Note that if I were doing anything with 4E I would be all for an E10 / heroic cap. Just wondering how you would get the most play out of it. I mean, I can imagine a variety of ways (like dividing XP by 10 or something) but I'm wondering how people more conversant with the latest 4E gossip are planning to do it.

From everything I've seen, cutting back on xp will pretty much do it. In 3e, you have a big issue with wealth getting off track, but I suspect that will be easier to manage in 4e as items aren't based around the idea of being stat boosts. But with the way that most abilities reset (action points, healing, etc.), the only real loot characters will need will be expendable items.

 

[Harshax]

I don't think you have to tweak. According to Worlds&Monsters, it's expected to be able to enter the faboulus planes of the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos as much as can be the Feywild and the Shadowfell at every tier. You're just not meant to spend too much time there if you're only heroic-tier class.

Sure, sure. I didn't mean to imply major reworking of the rules. But there are other things to consider, such as tweaking abilities of magic rings (if you want to hand them to players). I assume paragon characters are the only one's capable of wearing such a thing because they have been designed to hold super cool paragon level powers. You'd also might want to tweak XP awards, so that attaining 10th level is a little more slow and steady.

 

[Stalker0]

Resistances can make things quite a bit tougher.

This is the kicker right here. One reason parties can theoretically fight monsters at lot higher level than they are is because most monsters don't have any blanket (you can't touch me) abilities. No unbeatable SR, no save or die if your X HD or lower, no DR 20/epic, etc.

But some monsters do, and those monsters have to be treated differently.

For example, someone posted that a 23 level monster could be taken down by a few 100 1st level characters. But if that monster had had even weapon resist 5 or fast healing 1 it would have been a completely different ballgame.

 

[dystmesis]

This is the kicker right here. One reason parties can theoretically fight monsters at lot higher level than they are is because most monsters don't have any blanket (you can't touch me) abilities. No unbeatable SR, no save or die if your X HD or lower, no DR 20/epic, etc.

But some monsters do, and those monsters have to be treated differently.

For example, someone posted that a 23 level monster could be taken down by a few 100 1st level characters. But if that monster had had even weapon resist 5 or fast healing 1 it would have been a completely different ballgame.

They were also missing their warlord, and the party wizard had been non-participating for most of the combat.

 

[Grimstaff]

No dog in this fight anymore, but what sort of tweaks do y'all think it will require to run a "long lasting" campaign in E10? I ask because Keep on the Shadowfell is supposed to level a party all the way up to 3rd. 2 levels in one module! At that rate you hit the level cap after about 5 adventures.

Note that if I were doing anything with 4E I would be all for an E10 / heroic cap. Just wondering how you would get the most play out of it. I mean, I can imagine a variety of ways (like dividing XP by 10 or something) but I'm wondering how people more conversant with the latest 4E gossip are planning to do it.

With 3.5, I used the xp charts from the Wilderlands Players Handbook. This stretched the mid-levels out nicely, the PCs were 6th lvl when normal progression would have had them at 8, and so on. The group got to enjoy more modules in the 4th-7th lvl range than they normally would have, and this added a lot to the campaign.

I suspect there will be ways to tweak xp in 4E as well, and WotC may even have had the foresight to include alternate xp progressions in the Core Books somewhere. Of course the ultimate fruition of such an idea would have been for them to release a Heroic PHB, and a Paragon PHB, and so on (not unlike old Basic/Expert D&D).

Still, even with normal progression, the idea of completing 2 or even 3 campaigns in one year, and having the resultant large pool of 10-11th level characters to draw from when the mood strikes to do a "save the world" campaign, is very appealing to me at this point. Not only would that give me some variety as a DM, it will also let the players "test drive" a lot of different race/class combos and break in the new system very nicely, while still saving some surprises (ie high level play) for the future.

 

[KidSnide]

No dog in this fight anymore, but what sort of tweaks do y'all think it will require to run a "long lasting" campaign in E10? I ask because Keep on the Shadowfell is supposed to level a party all the way up to 3rd. 2 levels in one module! At that rate you hit the level cap after about 5 adventures.

Note that if I were doing anything with 4E I would be all for an E10 / heroic cap. Just wondering how you would get the most play out of it. I mean, I can imagine a variety of ways (like dividing XP by 10 or something) but I'm wondering how people more conversant with the latest 4E gossip are planning to do it.

YMMV, but my solution is to not give out treasure or xp. The game is about achieving goals, not collecting things. The PCs are far more concerned with the rule of nations than they are with their personal financial situation, (although they are hardly above occasional graft). And so, I level them up after every 2 or 3 adventures. When I think they need more magic items, I have a grateful NPC present them as a gift, tell them that something they want is up for sale, or make an item noticeable on a dead adversary. (Since there is hardly ever loot, I usually need to point out that this particular body may be worth searching.)

I don't doubt that increasing your character's power is fun. Most games need xp and treasure to keep the players' interest. But if you have players who want to participate in a campaign that last many years, they know they need to accept a lower advancement rate.

 

[Imp]

I imagine I would want to play the game into paragon and see how it goes. Then, later, if I feel like sticking to the heroic tier, there'll be more written material for me to draw from, to fill things out. E6 benefits from a decent amount of splatbook stuff I think.

 

[Hussar]

My GAMERS WANTED advertisements usually list that my campaigns go from levels 1-12. That probably won't change for 4e..unless I dig out my D&D master level set and run it up to level 36th! HA!

Seriously though, the info they just put out said "Characters will typically have all of their magic item slots filled by level 10." That REALLY put me off.

jh

I gotta ask.

Your 10th level parties, in any edition, didn't have seven or ten magic items each? Really?

 

[Frostmarrow]

I gotta ask.

Your 10th level parties, in any edition, didn't have seven or ten magic items each? Really?

Furthermore, even if you do have all your slots filled by level 10 you don't necessarily have the stuff you want the most. In D&D you can be Captain America wielding a magic whip just because you haven't found your adamantine shield yet.

 

[One Horse town]

This should be emphasised more. There is no reason that anyone in hte campaign world knows of the resurection ritual, or the knowledge is very limited, requiring lots of searching obscure libraries and perhaps stealing the relevant tomes and getting a bunch of exotic artifacts.

This seems like an excellent Epic tier campaign arc to me - steal the Book of Ressurection from the God of Life. Creep into his astral lair and spirit the book away to return home as heroes! and change the very way in which the world runs (should you teach others how to do it). Very Loki like.