Torchbearer 2nd ed: first impressions

[AbdulAlhazred]

So, rules for seafaring. A couple of people have some interesting ideas for Earthsea-like archipelago settings, which I think would be super cool, but it would require some mechanics for journeys by boat. My thought is to have two types of journey there. One, established sea routes from X to Y that have established rutters - thus the perils and whatnot are known and the whole shooting match can probably be elided barring RP type stuff on board. However, if you leave the established routes then you need to get fancy, and I was thinking something like the camp phase with roles and linked skills (not a brand new idea, I know). But it keeps the whole group involved, it mitigates for seafaring backgrounds that will get actual use, and I think the mechanic would sit pretty lightly on top of what's already there. SO you have a navigator, a pilot, a lookout, a guy who climbs on ropes (I'm not a sailor, sue me). Then just use the same roles for determining possible crisis, type and roll determined by role.

As far as something like making camp goes, in pre-modern times, particularly in a time period which lacks really large ocean-going vessels, it was not usual to remain at sea constantly. So, for instance, in classical times, and early medieval times, ships pulled out on land QUITE often, and never sailed in the dark, rarely left sight of land, etc. So, making camp under these conditions is likely to be largely the same as in the normal game. You just pull up to some likely looking spot, haul your boat out, or possibly anchor it close to shore, and make camp right there. If the boat is anchored, then it would keep a watch, otherwise the crew will undoubtedly guard their vessel.

So, yeah, I would think that waterborne travel doesn't really involve anything radically new or different from the existing process. There might be slightly different hazards, and as you say a bit different roles, skills, and toolkit, but it sure seems like there's no need for any radical modifications to the basic framework.

 

[Fenris-77]

As far as something like making camp goes, in pre-modern times, particularly in a time period which lacks really large ocean-going vessels, it was not usual to remain at sea constantly. So, for instance, in classical times, and early medieval times, ships pulled out on land QUITE often, and never sailed in the dark, rarely left sight of land, etc. So, making camp under these conditions is likely to be largely the same as in the normal game. You just pull up to some likely looking spot, haul your boat out, or possibly anchor it close to shore, and make camp right there. If the boat is anchored, then it would keep a watch, otherwise the crew will undoubtedly guard their vessel.

So, yeah, I would think that waterborne travel doesn't really involve anything radically new or different from the existing process. There might be slightly different hazards, and as you say a bit different roles, skills, and toolkit, but it sure seems like there's no need for any radical modifications to the basic framework.

Well, if you posit a level of technology where sailing outside sight of land is a regular thing then at that point you do need something mechanical to handle it, although I don't think it requires much. In part the need here is going to be based on the map. Sailing and landing is fine in the Mediterranean and up the coast of Europe is fine, so if your map allows that, then great, but if your map requires something more like Vikings ailing to the new world then not so much.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, if you posit a level of technology where sailing outside sight of land is a regular thing then at that point you do need something mechanical to handle it, although I don't think it requires much. In part the need here is going to be based on the map. Sailing and landing is fine in the Mediterranean and up the coast of Europe is fine, so if your map allows that, then great, but if your map requires something more like Vikings ailing to the new world then not so much.

Well, how far did the Vikings ever actually sail from land, and how long did they ever remain continuously at sea in their vessels. We know that they went from Scandinavia across the North Sea to Britain, but these crossings weren't continuous sea journeys, they stopped in the Shetland Islands (which are pretty much in direct line of almost any crossing from Norway). If you went to Iceland, you then stopped in the Faroe Islands, and there were other islands along the way which were likely 'camping spots' at the very least. So, the biggest gap there is from the Faroes to Iceland, 200km. No doubt you'd be at sea for several days. The gap between Iceland and Greenland is considerably smaller, maybe 60km, though sailing on down to the southern point of Greenland and around into the Labrador Sea is several hundred miles, but all along a coastline where it is quite possible to haul out.

Its unclear exactly what route was actually taken from Greenland to the west, although the most direct route, straight South West across the Labrador Sea is pretty long. Anyway, the sagas tell us this entire journey was pretty risky!

So, OK, you might want something for open ocean, if you were dealing with such an epic crossing. I think its likely that 99% of TB2 journeying would be a bit less ambitious, so it seems to me like you could get away with some fairly basic rules and cover most cases (IE sailing up a river, or up or down the coast). It seems like stock TB2 kind of envisages a basic milieu where the action takes place in something a bit like a 'fantasy Greenland' where the PC's society is kind of at the extreme furthest advance of civilization and is doomed to be rolled back, sort of like Viking Greenland. I guess you could mount an epic journey further west for some McGuffin or other...

 

[Fenris-77]

My point was that you might want something more epic and that the rules can accommodate that pretty easily at need.

 

[Fenris-77]

Beyond my point above I completely agree about sea travel btw, 100%. Super easy.

 

[Manbearcat]

In my customary hour+ insomnia, I figured I'd throw some quick words in here.

Got in an hour of play Saturday night (via Skype as we're all 1 to 2 hours away from each other) with this TB2 group.

It featured dealing with the Obstacle 1 of the Adventure phase:

* Getting across the large, unnaturally angry sea inlet of the fjord to the island domain of the long ruined Remote Village.

To that end, the players went the following route:

* Gather wood (Laborer) and build raft (Carpenter). Since this was basically a group move, we aren't taxing twice against The Grind, so this is effectively Turn 1 against the Grind (every 4 Turns the PCs earn a condition). Karolina is the Carpenter so its up to Taika to gather the wood.

* This is, in fact, Torchbearer. This far-flung northern place sees only a few hours of daylight, and even that sees the sun heavily blotted out from dense cloud cover. Today is the same. Allie pulls one of 4 Torches (lasts 2 Turns) from their Backpack and lights the tasks of her allies. Now while this isn't two actual Turns against The Grind, this is effectively 2 Turns worth of light because these are discrete things that will eat up the Light. So this whole effort costs a full Torch worth of light.

* Taika doesn't have Laborer, but she has Hunter and Survivalist. Either of those would have a handaxe as a tool, so effectively she has the tool necessary for this job so she doesn't get an additional 1 Factor for the Test; 1 Factor for gather wood +1 Factor for the wet and wintry conditions.

Taika Beginner's Luck Health 4d

/2
+Fresh Condition +1d
= 3d

She fails the Laborer's Test. The stakes for the Test were going to be her tools for any subsequent Survivalist and Hunter Test for the rest of this Adventure/Camp (if any) phase(s) (therefore any Test would have +1 Factor). So she keeps the Fresh Condition, she marks a BL Test for Laborer, but she loses her handaxe/tools (they fail in the process of harvesting/breaking down the wood).

* Karolina builds the raft Carpenter 2 vs Ob2. The Test fails. The wood Taika gathered was difficult to work with, the rope weaving was tedious, and the weather was miserable. The raft gets built but she ends up with the Angry (can't use Wises or Beneficial Traits) from the affair. She marks a failure for Carpenter for Advancement.

* The unnaturally angry sea catches the attention of Allie the Sorcerer. Allie has the following ability:

Otherworldly Senses: Once per phase, you may attempt to detect the presence of spirits or events with emotional resonance that caused (or will cause) Otherworldly turbulence. To detect spirits seeking to remain hidden from you, test Will against an obstacle equal to 8 minus the spirit’s Might. You don’t need to test to detect spirits that are not hiding themselves. To sense other Otherworldly effects, test your Will with the following factors:

The angry elemental spirits of the sea are not trying to hide themselves so no test is required. Ever since the cataclysm and the great rock fell from the cliff face (creating a tsunami), these waters have been filled with fury and hungry for ever more destruction. Getting to the island will be no neat trick.

* The group decides that their next Turn will Test Alie's Summoner 4 to ward the raft on its perilous journey across the waters vs the Nature 5 (Devouring, Breaking, Pursuing) of the fjord's elemental water spirits bent on destroying the raft and claiming its occupants in its depths. Karolina uses another of Allie's torches to light the way (1/2 Turns remaining on this Torch).

Allie Summoner 4d

• 1d Supplies (Salt and Candles - frees up 1 Belt Slot)
• 1d Help Taika Loremaster (the elf has experience aplenty with the primal spirits of the world)

+5d Channeling Within Nature (spends their Persona Point for Demanding - this test is effectively a rebuke against the sea's advances on the small raft)

11d vs Nature 6 succeeds (with margin of success 2 which will downthrottle any future test against these waters or the elemental spirits of these waters by that amount). Allie marks a success for Summoner Advancement. If this would have failed, it would have been a Flee Conflict.

They've landed their craft safely on the island. The Grind is now at 2/4 and their present Torch has 1 Turn left.

 

[Manbearcat]

Quick thoughts on the oceanic voyage:

* As a Journey phase (eg the Adventure phase is elsewhere), you’re not dealing with a Camp phase or The Grind. Recovery isn’t possible but Conditions aren’t accruing. Here you’re just worried about (a) # of Legs, (b) types of Tests, and (c) types of Twists to inflict alongside the Conditions you’re afflicting them with.

* As an actual Adventure Phase, you’re treating it like typical Adventure phase with (a) # of Obstacles, (b) relative Might/Precedence of Obstacles, (c) types of Twists to inflict alongside the Conditions you’re afflicting them with, (d) consequential decision-points around navigation (just like a keyed map), (e) Goals/Theme of the Adventure, (f) what Camp Phase looks like (is it @AbdulAlhazred ’s great idea or is it planned festivities/meals to stave off mutiny and what does the survey/danger/camp amenities factors look like there?), (g) Inventory pressure points that replace light.

 

[Fenris-77]

Yeah, I think that depending on the extent to which you wanted the voyage itself to be an 'event' in the game you could cycle from Journey phase into adventuring phase and back again at need. If seafaring is just transport for you game them you only need the journey bit, but if you want seafaring adventure, you cycle in some adventuring phases. The second would (might?) necessitate camp phases on ship, or some version of it. I'd probably design those two at the same time.

 

[Manbearcat]

Yeah, I think that depending on the extent to which you wanted the voyage itself to be an 'event' in the game you could cycle from Journey phase into adventuring phase and back again at need. If seafaring is just transport for you game them you only need the journey bit, but if you want seafaring adventure, you cycle in some adventuring phases. The second would (might?) necessitate camp phases on ship, or some version of it. I'd probably design those two at the same time.

What do you have in mind for Inventory Loadout necessity and attendant Gear Twist pressure points if light isn’t a deal?

That becomes the biggest obstacle to resolve if making seafaring voyage Adventure Phase rather than Journey.

Certainly not insurmountable by any means, but that requires the most care/consideration.

 

[Fenris-77]

Food and water maybe? Probably water as that's something you can't replenish while at sea assuming it's salt water you're sailing on.

Alternatively, you could just call it 'supplies' and have it cover eating, repairs, and whatever, and so connect it to the ship and entire crew rather than the individual PCs. You could pressure that with time related twists (becalmed) or food and water related twists (food spoilage) or recovery twists (healing) or even morale (that party you mentioned to improve morale. So in that picture some combination of twists and conditions pressures your supply, but the narrative details are left open to the GM (or could be linked to a Seaborne encounter table). You could also possibly allow certain sorts of skills checks like navigate, pilot, fisherman or whatever, to replace used supply in some fashion in the Ship version of the camp phase.

Edit - so size of ship (i.e. carrying capacity), which indexes cost to hire/run, could be a limiting factor on length of proposed voyage.