Torchbearer 2nd ed: first impressions

[AbdulAlhazred]

Food and water maybe? Probably water as that's something you can't replenish while at sea assuming it's salt water you're sailing on.

Alternatively, you could just call it 'supplies' and have it cover eating, repairs, and whatever, and so connect it to the ship and entire crew rather than the individual PCs. You could pressure that with time related twists (becalmed) or food and water related twists (food spoilage) or recovery twists (healing) or even morale (that party you mentioned to improve morale. So in that picture some combination of twists and conditions pressures your supply, but the narrative details are left open to the GM (or could be linked to a Seaborne encounter table). You could also possibly allow certain sorts of skills checks like navigate, pilot, fisherman or whatever, to replace used supply in some fashion in the Ship version of the camp phase.

Edit - so size of ship (i.e. carrying capacity), which indexes cost to hire/run, could be a limiting factor on length of proposed voyage.

Yeah, I would think that supplies, and maybe the condition of the ship, would be key factors. I mean, just going by the classic Columbus narrative, the food runs low, equipment breaks, crew morale frazzles in the face of the unknown, etc. Plenty of scope for a quartermaster, navigator, sailor, and leadership if dealing with a crew (which any larger long-range vessel is likely to have).

So, basically if we are talking about a 'sail into the unknown' kind of scenario, I'd think of it as one or two journey legs, followed by some sort of crisis that is treated like an encounter, perhaps? So, the PCs may have their equipment (ship) and supplies (food and water) attritioned, etc. And then they run into Cherybdis, or a Kraken, or some sort of hostile shoreline, etc. I could think of quite a few such things, ghost ships, sargasso, island, maybe even 'just' a storm.

 

[Manbearcat]

Should be finishing up the rest of the Adventure Phase with this group tonight (which has a very outside chance of also producing a Camp phase...doubtful as this is a small Adventure, but we'll see).

I'll get a post up detailing that in the next bit of time. But I wanted to do a compare/contrast of the way I handle TB2 Journeys (which is basically a mash-up of TB1 Journeys + some of the Toll mechanics in TB2) and the orthodox Toll procedure for TB2 Journeys.

GAME JOURNEY TOLL AND GAIN

Toll

• Karolina loses Fresh Condition.
• Karolina gains Afraid Condition.
• Allie spent 1/session use Against Yourself of Colossal Pride Trait
• Karolina spent their Persona Point
• Karolina spent 1/session use Against Yourself of Defender Trait
• Karolina spent their Cartographer Supplies
• All of Allie's Preserved Rations spent

Gain

• Allie earned Check * 1
• All 3 PCs mark 1 * Success in Persuader toward Skill Advancement
• Karolina marks 1 * Success in Pathfinder toward Skill Advancement
• Karolina marks 1 * Beginner's Luck to earn Skill in Dungeoneer
• Karolina marks 1 * Success in Cartographer toward Skill Advancement
• Karolina Pouch 2 now free
• Allie Belt Slot now Free
• Map from site 4 to site 8 complete (Fast Travel in future Journeys)
• Multiple * Express Belief

---

IF ACTUAL TB2 TOLL PROCEDURE USE

* There is no Toll for travelling from the settlements of site 2 to site 4. The off-road would effectively be 1 Leg as there is only a singular mode of travel (its governed by modes of travel rather than days). I'm going to use the Leg

Toll

Road: Delayed. Bad roads, impassable terrain or churlish seas; +1 Toll
Weather: Blustery Winds and Rain; +2 Toll
Terrain: Fields, grasslands, open terrain or coastal sailing: +1 Toll
Karolina Shield; +1 Toll
Karolina Cartographer Role; +1 Toll
Taika Guide Role (if Lost - which is +2 Toll all - had come up on the Road result, Taika could Test Ob3 + weather factors to resolve); +1 Toll
There are other Roles, but nothing applies for the Journey + Allie's capabilities.

After this, we would have something akin to the Pathfinder Test outlined in Leg 2 upthread. The Toll and Gain would be as outlined in that post.

Then Karolina's Cartographer Test would follow suit (outlined in the Leg 3 post upthread).

Each character's Toll can be paid via 1 Food, 1d Coin (f you have it), varying Gear configurations and other means. If any Toll is left unpaid, the Adventurer earns a Condition.

---

Hopefully, this post demonstrates the procedural contrast, the cognitive workspace contrast, and the net cost/gain for each mode of play. In essence:

* My way yields much more net Gain (in the way of Advancement and prospects for Checks and "thematic flex space" for next session Persona/Fate) with a bit more net Toll (though some variance there depending upon Road/Terrain/Weather and map route complexity), and more intensive decision-points (in terms of total #, stakes per, breadth of, and gamestate/character implications). It will also be much more intensive in terms of table time spent on it. Its effectively normal Adventuring phase play without (a) The Grind and (b) persistent Light requirement/resource expenditure.

* The orthodox TB2 still has very interesting decision-points, which lies in the managing of route, managing Roles (you have to have a Guide for overland and Navigator for sea, but the others are optional to mitigate certain Road/Terrain/Weather Results via Tests and assumed cost of Toll by the singular PC assuming the Role), and then managing your personal/intraparty Toll once it is tallied. And, again, you'll have a Test (typically 1, but sometimes more) that works per the normal rules.


Really, if you want your Journeys to be more granular and more impactful on play and want to spend more table time on them...use my rules. If you want the inverse (though, again, they're still fun with a few interesting decision-points), use the TB2 Toll rules.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Sooooo, even assuming the PCs don't NEED to camp, it would seem like, generally, doing so is CHEAPER than going into town, and could still result in the loss of at least certain common conditions, etc. I'd think if you are hard up, camp first! I guess it depends on how hazardous the camping is...

 

[Manbearcat]

So the Town phase is governed by a lot of various things (eg Circles is key here), but recovery there involves a Resource test against Lifestyle Cost after you've tallied up all your costs. The Town phase is not just where you recover/take respite (which costs more), but also where you hire cohorts, trade/spend loot, craft/forge/repair kit, scribe scrolls, practice alchemy/spells, cook for pay, locate a specific person for parley et al, cash out gems/valuables et al, make offerings, join temples/guilds, research, conduct personal business, see parents/friends/mentor/contacts, and get adventures. Tests in Town will mostly involve Town Twists (which can lead to Conflicts), but will also result in Conditions, or a PC's Enemy appearing (and causing trouble).

The Camp phase is governed very differently:

* What is the status of everyone's Conditions/Gear/Inventory capability?

* Its powered by Checks. The group has to get at least one Check to enter Camp phase (you get Checks by using Traits against yourself). It is also powered by Instincts (which allow you to make the test inherent to your Instinct without spending a Check). You can do more than just recover here (eg you can forge/repair kit, forage, etc).

* Its dangerous and there are layered decision-points and assessments that go into when you camp, where and what about (is it a cold camp without a fire, is it ancient ruins or wilderness, what is the danger level, are we/who is keeping watch to avert disaster, do we have any amenities available and should we look for some or another spot) your camp, or even if you camp. And if you camp, you need to decide if you want/can spend a Turn (against the Grind) in the Adventuring phase with a Survivalist test to find a good campsite).

Ultimately, you want enough amenities and buffs to the Camp Events roll table that trouble

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In other news...a very interesting...and calamitous resolution to Adventure 1 that should give folks a good idea just how pear-shaped things can go early on in the land of Torchbearer!

I'll get a (much more abstracted as there was a fair amount of content) update at some point here in the future.

 

[pemerton]

maybe I should check out TB.

I'm still catching up on this thread. But I would say that you should check it out.

 

[pemerton]

That looks really solid, I like it a lot.

I'm still working through a proper understanding/internalisation of the official journey rules (in the LoreMaster's Manual). These are a bit different from @Manbearcat's house rule, but not wildly different. I think the subtle differences wouldn't be obvious to someone not reasonably familiar with the system.

Anyway, some in this thread might have read me posting the complaint that one of the weakest parts of Classic Traveller - which I like a lot - is that it's rules for world exploration are weak, and basically degenerate to GM fiat. The Torchbearer rules, by way of contrast, look strong to me: clear stakes, clear rules for setting obstacles, meaningful resource management.

I've resolved journeys in Burning Wheel test Orienteering to lead your group safely across the Bright Desert, and everyone tests Forte to avoid tax). Unsurprisingly, the Torchbearer approach is more gritty! But tightly integrated. Reading and re-reading helps to drive home that the whole system - the different phases, journey and adventures, the rules for settlements (including lifestyle, but also settlement economics and how PCs' base camps can grow into settlements) - is tightly integrated.

 

[pemerton]

The convergence of conflict-laden mythology and highly functional tropes for actual play is THE important component of setting design.

An advantage of PDFs is you can easily search for key words (Immortals, Lord, Lady and similar) and compile a catalogue of the religious figures that are found in the books. In that respect the approach - from the design point of view - is a bit like 4e D&D.

Anyway, I like the grouping of the various Immortals into the six groups of Lords - Life and Death, Law and Chaos, Plenty and Want, Valour and Terror, Light and Darkness, and Fate. That covers a lot of terrain, can encompass as good range of more detailed beings/demigods, supports more "monotheistic" approaches (I support Life and oppose Death) as well as more 4e-ish Invoker approaches of serving a variety or a balance of gods.

I also like the Shrine offerings tables in the Scholar's Guide!

 

[pemerton]

Anyone have thoughts on all of that?

I don't think it contradicts what I posted. (Including that the word "scum" is possibly a bit laden!)

My point being, as depicted by the RULES, I would expect an Adventurer to be banished from polite society, perhaps barely tolerated as a suspicious but not actively criminal person, etc. As long as you don't smell too bad, stay out of the way of anyone with any real status, and pay with cash you're OK.

The LoreMaster's Manual has some discussion of this which is basically the same as what you say here (pp 1808, 182)

Players often come to Torchbearer with the idea that town is a playground for their characters. They assume they can talk to whomever they want in whatever tone they please. They see the amenities of town as theirs for the taking. They feel that the townsfolk should be grateful for their mere presence.

To set the record straight, town doesn’t like adventurers at all. Adventurers are dirty. They don’t have jobs. They talk funny. They’re armed. And usually, they’re not from around here.

Town would appreciate it if you did your business, paid your bills and were gone as soon as possible. . . .

If the adventurers attempt to befriend, associate with or ask favors of the regular people in town, those poor souls smile tightly, answer any questions monosyllabically and quickly disengage. . . .

If you get the sense that the folks in town only tolerate you for your coin and otherwise are a bit hostile, you’re onto something. If you feel dread about heading to town and you’re eager to leave as soon as you get within those walls, then you have the right idea.

Town is designed to feel bad to adventurers. It’s expensive and there are a lot of petty rules. Even in their hometown, adventurers are outsiders. They don’t fit in.

Best to do your business and get back into the wilderness as quickly as possible.​

This reminds me of REH's Conan. It's a feel that some D&D play goes for, but I think Torchbearer has a more robust set of mechanics to back it up.

 

[pemerton]

My point was that you might want something more epic and that the rules can accommodate that pretty easily at need.

I think the journey rules are a good starting point.

Eg roll for Trouble on the Road, you get Waylaid. The lookout (Scout) tests to circumvent it, and fails, so a twist is in order - now there's a conflict with pirates! Either a drive off, a flee (whose boat is faster?) or even a kill if you're feeling saltier than them.

And all the minutiae of gear and resources is handled via the Steward and Purser roles and the rules for paying down toll. To me it looks pretty workable.

Hopefully, this post demonstrates the procedural contrast, the cognitive workspace contrast, and the net cost/gain for each mode of play. In essence:

* My way yields much more net Gain (in the way of Advancement and prospects for Checks and "thematic flex space" for next session Persona/Fate) with a bit more net Toll (though some variance there depending upon Road/Terrain/Weather and map route complexity)

I think you can earn checks on a journey in the official rules. Given the official rules include tests made while travelling into the Grind, it seems to be that it's best conceived as an element of the Adventure Phase but governed via a distinct process (toll, roles) in exchange for not having to actually make gritty bit-by-bit decisions about where you go, what rock you look under, etc. In other words it's exactly what Classic Traveller is missing!

If the adventure itself demanded making those gritty decisions then you wouldn't use the journey rules. And there would be more checks and hence more Grind and hence food, gear etc would be used up in the standard Adventure Phase fashion.

Sooooo, even assuming the PCs don't NEED to camp, it would seem like, generally, doing so is CHEAPER than going into town, and could still result in the loss of at least certain common conditions, etc. I'd think if you are hard up, camp first! I guess it depends on how hazardous the camping is...

Also, you need checks!

So you have to do something to earn them. That's part of why I think journeying needs to allow earning checks. That's one way to go from travel to camp before entering the dungeon.

So the Town phase is governed by a lot of various things (eg Circles is key here), but recovery there involves a Resource test against Lifestyle Cost after you've tallied up all your costs. The Town phase is not just where you recover/take respite (which costs more), but also where you hire cohorts, trade/spend loot, craft/forge/repair kit, scribe scrolls, practice alchemy/spells, cook for pay, locate a specific person for parley et al, cash out gems/valuables et al, make offerings, join temples/guilds, research, conduct personal business, see parents/friends/mentor/contacts, and get adventures. Tests in Town will mostly involve Town Twists (which can lead to Conflicts), but will also result in Conditions, or a PC's Enemy appearing (and causing trouble).

The journey rules in the LMM have various examples interpolated (in a different font).

Now they're not all accurate - one of them seems to contradict the rules for the Cook role (by suggesting that the Cook paid down weather-related toll) and when I posted a question about it on the official forums got a reply from Luke Crane that opened with an "ugh" (which I hope was directed at the example, rather than me) and then said the reference in the example to the weather was just colour.

That said, here's another one of them (p 138):

A road that leads to a river that leads to a port where the adventurers book passage to an island - that’s three legs.​

Now in the rules as presented, the only way to book passage is during the town phase, as a type of "downtime" activity at the Docks (LMM p 187):

Book Passage
*Adventurers looking to travel by sea or river may begin their journey at the docks. See The Road Goes Ever On chapter for the travel rules.

*Some captains will take on another set of hands at the oars for no additional fee. However, the game master may impose a fee on erstwhile travellers for a berth on a ship. Add the fee to your lifestyle cost when leaving this town phase.

Book Passage Lifestyle Cost: short journey +1, moderate length journey +2, long journey (to another continent, for example) +3​

So taking this all literally, what we have in the example is a two-leg journey (road to river; river to port), then a town phase where the PCs' accommodation is the streets and their only activity is booking passage, which adds to their lifestyle cost (probably +2 for a moderate length journey to the island), then the journey to the island.

To me, this seems like an example of the system being highly structured but very flexible. Town phase can be an extended downtime affair, but doesn't have to be. Similar illustrations of flexibility (at least it seems to me) are found in the discussion of town adventures (LMM p 183) which build on the idea of camps that are squats in town (Scholar's Guide, pp 91, 274-76).

 

[pemerton]

I made an actual play post here.