TORCHWOOD Finale - spoilers

[Cthulhudrew]

The whole 12 regeneration thing could possibly be just a Time Lord edict, some ancient rule laid down by them to keep order among their kind. As has been pointed out, the Master has managed in various ways to circumvent it, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that it is just an artificially enforced rule rather than some law of nature.

If so, then now that the Time Lords are gone/defunct, the 12 regeneration rule need not be set in stone. (Though it might create some continuity issues with the whole Valeyard concept.)

I don't know specifically enough whether or not it has ever been stated to be otherwise, though, so perhaps some more knowledgeable Gallifreyans can enlighten me?

 

[Mark Hope]

The whole 12 regeneration thing could possibly be just a Time Lord edict, some ancient rule laid down by them to keep order among their kind. As has been pointed out, the Master has managed in various ways to circumvent it, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that it is just an artificially enforced rule rather than some law of nature.

If so, then now that the Time Lords are gone/defunct, the 12 regeneration rule need not be set in stone. (Though it might create some continuity issues with the whole Valeyard concept.)

I don't know specifically enough whether or not it has ever been stated to be otherwise, though, so perhaps some more knowledgeable Gallifreyans can enlighten me?

My understanding was that the Valeyard was an expression of potential, rather than an actual future incarnation, much like the white guy (forgotten the name) that appeared at the end of Tom Baker's incarnation.

I don't think that the 13 incarnations is a rule - I have always had the impression that it's a biological issue. However, I'm also not sure that it has ever been set in stone what happens when a Time Lord reaches the end of his last life. Do they suffer death like we do? Maybe something else happens? Just speculating here. I do know that in some of the spinoff material, there were plans to develop the Doctor's origins more thoroughly (apparently based on material that was intended for - but never saw - broadcast in the tv show).

What with the current rumours that David Tennant may leave the show after season three for the bright lights of Hollywood, we may end up seeing this matter addressed sooner rather than later...

 

[Falkus]

Also, I'm a bit dismayed that the net effect of Torchwood, both here and in Doctor Who, is such that the world would be better off without them. After all, without them, there would have been

Spoiler

neither Cybermen nor Daleks running around Canary Wharf, there would have been no spree of 'Risen Mitten' murders, and no CGI demons running around

this week. And, in all of this, how many people have they actually helped?

Well, if Torchwood and Jack weren't present, then Bilis Manger probably would have still found a way to unleash Abaddon, who, without Jack to stop him, would have then proceeded to exterminate all life on Earth, probably followed by all life in the universe.

 

[Richards]

In "The Five Doctors," didn't the Time Lords get the Master (Antony Ainley version) to work for them in helping to track down the Doctor (John Pertwee version) by offering to provide him with a new regeneration cycle? If so (if I'm not misremembering), that would imply that the Time Lords have the ability to grant regenerations beyond the normal twelve, and that twelve must be some kind of artificial limit they normally impose upon themselves for whatever reason. It would also mean a "14th Doctor" isn't out of the question.

Johnathan

 

[Mark Hope]

In "The Five Doctors," didn't the Time Lords get the Master (Antony Ainley version) to work for them in helping to track down the Doctor (John Pertwee version) by offering to provide him with a new regeneration cycle? If so (if I'm not misremembering), that would imply that the Time Lords have the ability to grant regenerations beyond the normal twelve, and that twelve must be some kind of artificial limit they normally impose upon themselves for whatever reason. It would also mean a "14th Doctor" isn't out of the question.

Johnathan

Well, there is some stuff in the spinoff literature that has the Timelords being grown or created in some weird looms, rather than being born in the sense that we would understand it. With this level of genetic engineering, they could certainly jump-start a new regeneration cycle, no matter whether regenerations are an artificial limit or a biological one.

 

[meomwt]

Right, here's the deal with The Doctor's regenerations:

The 12-regeneration (13 body) rule was established in the Ton Baker story The Deadly Assassin, written by the then Script Editor Robert Holmes. He inserted this line to put a limit on a Time Lord's lifespan. Previously, there had been no limits stated on the number of regenerations which they could undergo.

In the same story, we saw a decayed and dying Master who had used all of his regenerations. His plan was to harness the Time Lords' power source (The Eye of Harmony, a black hole balanced against the mass of their planet) to give himself more regenerations. The Doctor managed to work out what was happening and put a stop to it.

Later, in Tom's penultimate story The Keeper of Traken, The Master used a TARDIS-like construct (The Melkur) to hide on Traken whilst manipulating one of its rulers into position to become The Keeper - a mortal who became joined with The Source, a powerful energy source which kept the Traken system in harmony. The Doctor manipulated The Source to reject The Melkur/ Master. However, The Master had absorbed sufficient energy from The Source to merge with another of the Trakenite rulers and steal his body.

The Master was, indeed, offered a new regeneration cycle in The Five Doctors, as an inducement to help The Doctor discover what was happening in Gallifrey's Death Zone. He was never given one, however. He was seen being exterminated by The Daleks at the start of the McGann TV Movie, after which his remains turned into a snake-like creature which took over the body of ambulance driver Bruce (Eric Roberts). So it seems The Master has survived by Body-snatching.

As regards what will happen when The Doctor hits his thirteenth regeneration? Who knows! Suffice to say, if the series is still pulling in viewers and making money through merchandising, there'll be a conveniant narrative reason why the limit is removed (effect of being last Time Lord, special radiation, etc.).

 

[Morrus]

Well, there is some stuff in the spinoff literature that has the Timelords being grown or created in some weird looms, rather than being born in the sense that we would understand it. With this level of genetic engineering, they could certainly jump-start a new regeneration cycle, no matter whether regenerations are an artificial limit or a biological one.

Well, I dunno about any spinoff literature, but The Doctor has grandchildren (as evidenced by William Hartnell's first appearance), which implies normal breeding processes. And if he has grandchildren, he has at least one son or daughter.

 

[Mark Hope]

Well, I dunno about any spinoff literature, but The Doctor has grandchildren (as evidenced by William Hartnell's first appearance), which implies normal breeding processes. And if he has grandchildren, he has at least one son or daughter.

I haven't read any of the spinoff stuff myself, just accounts of it (plus we have a serious Dr Who fanatic in our gaming group, along with the brother-in-law of the writer of Dalek, so there is a fair amount of Whoniverse chatter around the table). But as I understand it, the spinoff material has a wildly convoluted explanation regarding how Susan can be the Doctor's granddaughter at a time when the Timelords were unable to reproduce biologically. Wikipedia has a bunch of stuff on it - the stuff on "the Other" has the best salient details. Not sure what to make of it, myself (gut reaction was not to like it - I prefer the Doctor shrouded in eternal mystery), but it seems to be derived from stuff that was planned for broadcast. There is also a rumour that some of this stuff is going to be incorporated into Tennant's 2007 series, but there is no confirmation in that regard yet, just the usual fannish speculation.

(A bit like this, really, lol...)

He was seen being exterminated by The Daleks at the start of the McGann TV Movie...

Did we actually see it? I'm not disupting that it happened, but I had thought that we only heard it in a "voice-over" style audio track. Shame, as it would have been cool to see. I'm waiting for the Master to crop up in the new series, personally. Could well be possible, especially if the Face of Boe's message to the Doctor is "You are not alone", as has been suggested here and there...

 

[Cthulhudrew]

I'm waiting for the Master to crop up in the new series, personally. Could well be possible, especially if the Face of Boe's message to the Doctor is "You are not alone", as has been suggested here and there...

Personally, I think his message is going to be "Who cut the cheese?"

 

[Raven Crowking]

Loved the CGI demon who's shadow killed - that was quite effective - a nice throwback to the "Satan Pit" - though this demon was apparently Abaddon rather than Satan. Wonder if there's more of them imprisoned throughout the galaxy!

The Destroyer in Battlefield (7th Doctor) springs immediately to mind. It's interesting that, in The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit the Doctor mentions the Daemons of Demnos having legends of demon-like beings, when they themselves were (in The Daemons, 3rd Doctor) responsible for some of the demon mythology of the Earth.

Clearly, the reason that we humans gloss over anomalous things in the Doctor Who universe is that, having been influenced by so many alien species since our prehistory, we have to ignore them to get anything done.....