Torm vs. Tyr

[Uzzy]

This seems to reinforce my belief that "acquiring" things from other works (real-world mythology and other settings) is what makes the Realms the Realms.

Shame that's a false belief then, isn't it?

 

[Torm]

Too bad, I never much cared for Torm.

Why? What'd I ever do to you?

 

[The Little Raven]

Shame that's a false belief then, isn't it?

So, Ed was lying in all those articles where he talked about taking gods from real-world mythologies and only sometimes renaming them? So, a god that loses a hand to an immortal canine while his brethren are chaining it... and he happens to share the exact same name as the real-world god... that isn't an indication of taking from other sources? Oghma, a god of knowledge, isn't anything like the inventive Ogma, whose name was modified to name an alphabet (ogham)? No link there? Loviatar, maiden of agony and pain, is nothing like Loviatar, youngest of the god of death, and called the worst of her brethren? A goddess of luck named Tyche has no connection to the Greek goddess of fortune and destiny... also named Tyche? Corellon, Moradin, Garl, Lolth, and their ilk aren't based on the same exact gods from Greyhawk?

 

[grimslade]

So, Ed was lying in all those articles where he talked about taking gods from real-world mythologies and only sometimes renaming them? So, a god that loses a hand to an immortal canine while his brethren are chaining it... and he happens to share the exact same name as the real-world god... that isn't an indication of taking from other sources? Oghma, a god of knowledge, isn't anything like the inventive Ogma, whose name was modified to name an alphabet (ogham)? No link there? Loviatar, maiden of agony and pain, is nothing like Loviatar, youngest of the god of death, and called the worst of her brethren? A goddess of luck named Tyche has no connection to the Greek goddess of fortune and destiny... also named Tyche? Corellon, Moradin, Garl, Lolth, and their ilk aren't based on the same exact gods from Greyhawk?

I'm not following. Don't beat around the bush; spit it out! ;P

Torm ascending after the Tyr-Tymora-Helm debacle is making lemonade from lemons. The love triangle was forced. It needed a lot of setup to get to that payoff and 2 paragraphs in the GHotR could not do it justice. The Torm ascendancy needs to be treated in a better way.

 

[Green Knight]

I don't understand the talk of balance; Tyr is a being of law and good, and would rather the balance tip toward MORE lawful than less. Unless by "balance" you mean "established order," which I could see. Tyr would likely be all about lawful transition, and killing someone in the heat of affrontery would be upsetting to him, I would think.

Well, when I talk about him supporting the Balance, I'm thinking of the novel Crucible, here, in which Cyric, Mystra, and Kelemvor were put on trial for failing in their godly duties. Tyr was ready to convict all three, despite the fact that their continued existence was for the good (Mystra and Kelemvor were favoring good over evil, and Cyric's incompetence was helping good, which wouldn't be the case if a more competent god were to take his place). But as a god, he had to set aside his personal opinion and do what was best for the Balance. And what the Balance needed was a god of Magic and Death who did their jobs without bias, rather then favoring the good over the evil.

 

[Mortellan]

I read Green Knights email to Rich Baker and I have to say, even as a DM who doesn't run FR I was still thoroughly impressed with his arguement. Torm's character development deserves to move forward as he stated. This is one of the few pleasing things I have read development-wise since Gencon. Kudos!

 

[Moonshade]

The posts by Green Knight that seem to have impressed the designers can be found here and here (also, Rich Baker's reply). I'm quoting the first in full because I think it will help explain things very well.

I don't know about anyone else, Rich, but after this whole debacle with Helm and Tyr, I'd just like to see Tyr gone and have Torm replace him and become the new God of Justice. Yeah, he was a servant in life and a servant as a god, but I think it's time for Torm to step up to the big leagues. Let him pass on the Portfolios of Duty, Loyalty, and Obedience to another servitor deity (Possibly Nobanion or even Bahamut. Or better yet, create a new god who was once a mortal follower of Torm, a Paladin, who discovered the location of Chalsembyr, and who was rewarded by being elevated to Demigod status) while he claims the Portfolios of Justice, Guardians, Protection, Protectors, and Paladins. I think there're numerous good reasons to do so:

1) Tyr killing Helm has left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths. Maybe I've got a limited imagination , but I imagine that the number of Realms players who like that plotline don't even reach into the double digits, percentage wise. It's probably a stretch to say that 2-3% of Realms fans like that story. Point is, Tyr's now inextricably linked to a story which has left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of Realms fans, and his continued presence will only serve as a constant reminder of that story. So what's the value of keeping him around? He doesn't bring anything to the Realms, but instead detracts from it. Hell, he did so even before that whole debacle, as I'll illustrate below.

2) Tyr's an interloper deity, while Torm's a native. There're other interloper deities in the Realms, but Tyr's far more stand out then the rest. For some people, he starts conjuring up images of Thor, Loki, and Odin, and frankly, I don't want to think about Thor when I'm playing in the Realms. Bad enough that the story of Fenris was altered so that Kezef the Chaos Hound filled that role. I think it's time for Tyr to pack up and go home.

3) With Helm's death, his worshippers have to go somewhere. So where will they go? They certainly won't go to Tyr. Hell, Tyr may end up losing worshippers, too, once people hear about the whole sordid story with Tymora and Helm. Torm, on the other hand, is the natural choice for Helm's former worshippers to flock to. Especially with Torm and Helm having actively directed their churches to foster good relations with each other. With Helm's death, that's where those good relations would pay off, as Torm's church is likely to end up absorbing a good deal of Helm's worshippers. With that kind of influx of worshippers, that'd easily push Torm up to Intermediate status at a minimum.

4) Torm's star has been on the rise for years, now. Ever since the Time of Troubles, we've been told in supplement after supplement how popular his church is becoming. How many more worshippers he's gaining. Torm's church seemed to be rivalling Helm's church, and Helm is/was an Intermediate God. That's a god who should be promoted, not demoted. His fairly meteoric rise in popularity can only have been helped along by the return of Bane. It was Torm, after all, who killed Bane during the Time of Troubles. With Bane returned, and Faerunians fearful about what that entails, more and more people are praying to Torm for deliverance from Bane. Faerunians are looking to Torm for salvation, and has been pointed out before, the beliefs of worshippers can change a deity. With so many people praying to Torm to defend them from Bane, Torm's role in the Faerunian Pantheon would start shifting, and he'd soon enough cease to be simply about duty and loyalty. Especially if he were to pick up Helm's Portfolio of Protection.

5) Torm's story is a powerful one. It's the kind of story that real religions are built around. He sacrificed himself to save his worshippers. He died and was resurrected. It literally doesn't get better then that. So why have a god as vibrant and interesting as Torm as a mere servitor, when the god who he serves is dull and lacklustre by comparison?

Personally, I think you folks are missing a golden opportunity, here. You've got a fantastic confluence of events which can and should lead up to Torm stepping up and becoming a Greater God, taking his place as Bane's arch-nemesis. The ying to his yang and all that. It'd make for a great dynamic in the Faerunian Pantheon, and it'd be a whole lot more personal then setting up Tyr or Silvanus against Bane. The two of them literally fought each other to death, after all. Not to mention that in a lot of respects, Bane is a dark mirror of Torm. It'd be nice if they were on an equal playing field, again. Then we can just sit back and watch the conflict percolate.

That's my personal wish, anyway. But at the very least, Torm should be a Lesser God (In 4E terms, I mean). Putting him down as a Demigod is a contradiction to established background, in which he does have worshippers, and churches, and clerics, and even whole knightly orders devoted to him. And all of that background has said that his faith is only growing, not shrinking. And the influx of former Helm worshippers could only make it grow, not shrink. So there's no way that Torm should ever be listed as a Demipower in the 4E Realms.

I agree with everything said in this post but would not have been able to express it as well. Green Knight, thank you for arguing so eloquently in favour of this change! And it's also good to know that designers are willing to listen if they're presented with a respectful but persuasive argument.

The whole love triangle was a big mess (the God of Justice screwing up in a major way, the God of Guardians dying a pretty sad death, the Goddess of Good Luck agreeing to an arranged marriage that made her miserable). But since it had been done, all indications seemed to be that Realms fans were going to be stuck with it in 4E. The elevation of Torm saves what can be saved of the story by paying attention to its logical consequences (people's loss of faith in Tyr and his judgment). While I like the big FR pantheon, in this case I think it's better to remove a god than to ignore what the storyline would do to his worshippers in the Realms and his credibility/popularity among players.

I always saw Tyr as the worst of the interlopers. The name, the Fenris story; overall he felt much more intrusive than even someone like Silvanus, who's still not one of the first names to come to mind when people think of the Roman pantheon.

 

[PeterWeller]

First off, I want to say that I'm in the thin minority that actually likes the whole love triangle story. I'm all about the petty manipulative and manipulated FR gods as presented in the Avatar Trilogy and its sequels. That being said, goldang! does Green Knight make a brilliant argument as to how to salvage that story with the fan-base and give a deity the bump he so definitely deserves. I support Torm for FR LG Greater Deity '08.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

I prefer original creations to ones that are *ahem* borrowed, wholesale, from other sources.

I agree; in my personal FR, for example, the Mulhorandi and Chessentans do not worship Egyptian deities, but rather the elemental powers, with celestial / genasi bloodlines among the ruling elite. (And as a Finnish gamer, the inclusion of Mielikki and Loviatar tends to bring up SoD difficulties whenever they're mentioned. )

Anyway, I'm all for Torm rising in power and replacing Tyr. It's, well, just, and makes for an interesting dynamic between Bane and Torm.

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

I'm not normally a Realms player or DM; I don't hate it, but once I heard it described as 'wet cardboard fantasy*' I figured out why I didn't like it.

But 4e Realms? Torm and Bane staring at each other across the metaphysical chessboard - and now Bane has paladins of his own? I just might be in for that.

Hell, Bane was one of three published gods I've ever wanted to include in a homebrew (the other two being Annam the giant god and the hobgoblin god from Warlords - sword and axe, religious revolution, stake-burnings, all that good stuff).

* For the record: A formless, flavorless beige mass that fails to stimulate or satisfy and collapses under the slightest pressure.