Touch attacks and Unarmed strikes

[atomn]

Do feats that benefit unarmed strikes or natural weapons also effect touch attacks?

To be more specific, could a Psion Uncarnate using their Incorporal Touch ability use the Psionic Fist feat to increase the touch attack's damage?

Thanks!

 

[Infiniti2000]

Do feats that benefit unarmed strikes or natural weapons also effect touch attacks?

Not strictly, no.

To be more specific, could a Psion Uncarnate using their Incorporal Touch ability use the Psionic Fist feat to increase the touch attack's damage?

No.

 

[atomn]

Cool, thanks!

 

[Artoomis]

Hmmm... The below rules seem to indicate you could indeed use feats, spells, etc that improve your unarmed attacks to improve your touch atacks chance of success. I seem to recall a rule somewhere that if you strike to deal damage, then you either hit or miss against the normal AC instead of the Touch AC, but other than that, there seems to be no distinction between an unarmed attack (of any kind) and a touch attack, at least as far as attack rolls go.

Perhaps I am overlooking somthing?

"Armed" Unarmed Attacks
Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed.

Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)

Touch Attacks
Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Touch Attacks
Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally[

 

[Infiniti2000]

Hmmm... The below rules seem to indicate you could indeed use feats, spells, etc that improve your unarmed attacks to improve your touch atacks chance of success.

How so? Because a spellcaster delivering a melee touch spell counts as being armed, suddenly allows him to add bonuses to unarmed attacks to all touch spells, ranged or not? The connection there that you see is non-existent.

... there seems to be no distinction between an unarmed attack (of any kind) and a touch attack, at least as far as attack rolls go.

Perhaps I am overlooking somthing?

You are overlooking the need for a distinction. There is no distinction between an unarmed attack and an apple, but the lack of such explicit mention in the rules does not make them equal.

A touch attack is neither a subset of unarmed attacks nor a superset. They are merely different.

unarmed attack
A melee attack made with no weapon in hand.

 

[Artoomis]

...A touch attack is neither a subset of unarmed attacks nor a superset. They are merely different.

Then how do you explain this hierarchy?

Unarmed Attacks
Attacks of Opportunity
Attacking unarmed provokes ...
Armed" Unarmed Attacks
...a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell...

Do you have any reference that states a touch attack is calculated any differently from any other unarmed attack other than the AC that must be overcome? I don't.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Do you have any reference that states a touch attack is calculated any differently from any other unarmed attack other than the AC that must be overcome? I don't.

Before you go there, you need to stop saying "any other". Why is it that when I cast disintegrate, I'm making an unarmed attack?

 

[KarinsDad]

Do you have any reference that states a touch attack is calculated any differently from any other unarmed attack other than the AC that must be overcome? I don't.

How it is calculated is irrelevant.

A touch spell (or attack) is neither an unarmed strike, nor a natural weapon. Hence, feats and abilities that enhance an unarmed strike or a natural weapon do not apply to touch attacks.

They are two different game mechanics. Just because they are both "unarmed attacks" is irrelevant.

 

[Artoomis]

Before you go there, you need to stop saying "any other". Why is it that when I cast disintegrate, I'm making an unarmed attack?

Um... because the rules say you are? They specifically state it is an "armed" unarmed attack.

Now it might not be an "unarmed strike" - another type of unarmed attack.

Note that damage-increasing effects for unarmed attacks won't apply unless you want to actually make an unarmed strike that causes damage in and of itself - in which case you strike against the normal AC, not the Touch AC.

Thus:

1. Anything that improves an unarmed attack's attack roll will also improve the touch attacks attack roll (it's the same roll).

2. It arguable (some agree, some don't) that things that improve an unarmed strike's attack roll apply to a touch attack. I take no position on that here, I just bring it up. It may well be true - but of course, only if you do not do damage from the unarmed strike.

3. For natural attacks, all bonuses to the attack roll will apply if the touch attack is made with a natural weapon. The natural weapon will do damage only if the attack roll is made against the regular AC vs. the Touch AC, though.

If anyone has an actual source stating this is not so, I'd like to see it. I admit I could have missed something, but so far no one has pointed anything out.

...A touch spell (or attack) is neither an unarmed strike, nor a natural weapon. Hence, feats and abilities that enhance an unarmed strike or a natural weapon do not apply to touch attacks.

They are two different game mechanics. Just because they are both "unarmed attacks" is irrelevant.

I have seen nothing in the rules that makes a "touch attack" anythind other than an unarmed attack that does not prvoke an AoO and is rolled against the Touch AC of the opponent.

All the above assumes we are talking about a touch attack used in the casting of a range "touch" spell.

The analysis is slightly different if it's a "ray" or one of the special situations (like trip) that use a touch attack with a weapon. It's basically the same, though.

 

[Infiniti2000]

1. No.
2. No.
3. No.

If anyone has an actual source stating this is not so, I'd like to see it. I admit I could have missed something, but so far no one has pointed anything out.

Actually, nothing tells you not to add in the +3 enhancement bonus from your buddy's greatsword to your touch attack roll...therefore, you can? Do you see the nonsensical correlation you've created?