touch attacks give extra action?

[S'mon]

I would rule that you could only move 5 ft, but you're right, it's a little weird. My wizard usually moves towards the target, casts the spell and touches him. I think maybe it's included as part of the spell-casting.

That would make sense if it were not that the move can come in between the casting and the touch!

Furthermore, touch attacks don't provoke attacks of opportunity!

A rules burp indeed, it seems intended to make the Cleric even more god-awful overpowered, given that he'll be the main touch-attacker.

It seems that the principles of the rules are being bent just to give the cleric unavoidable touch attacks, which of course include Harm.

I think I'm going to have to Rule 0 this, it's truly appalling.

Rule 0'd, Just applying the general principles of the rules:

You can move and then spellcast, with a touch as part of the spell, but this provokes an AoO.

Or you can cast the spell 1 round, then try to touch next round. That brings things back more to previous editions where Harm took a minute to cast, so you had to pre-prep it.

 

[IceBear]

Been playing it touch attacks by the book since 3E came out - haven't had any issues with it. Not arguing with your decision or anything, just giving you some imperical evidence If something doesn't make sense to my group, I house rule it too. This isn't one of them - I guess it depends on how you want spellcasters to work in your games. I'm all for spellcasters mixing it up in melee - gives the monsters more chances to snack on them

IceBear

 

[SpuneDagr]

The actual 'touching' in the touch attack does not provoke an attack of opportunity. However, CASTING the spell does.

 

[twjensen]

I'm all for spellcasters mixing it up in melee - gives the monsters more chances to snack on them

EXACTLY! Well said. This is the reason casters are allowed to cast, move, then attack with said spell. The disadvantage of even HAVING a spell that makes you run up to an Ogre when you only have 20 hp outweighs the advantage of the extra action, IMHO.

 

[Nish]

EXACTLY! Well said. This is the reason casters are allowed to cast, move, then attack with said spell. The disadvantage of even HAVING a spell that makes you run up to an Ogre when you only have 20 hp outweighs the advantage of the extra action, IMHO.

Which is why I love Spectral Hand so much.

 

[S'mon]

EXACTLY! Well said. This is the reason casters are allowed to cast, move, then attack with said spell. The disadvantage of even HAVING a spell that makes you run up to an Ogre when you only have 20 hp outweighs the advantage of the extra action, IMHO.

But it's the clerics who are going to be doing it, not the Wizards, anyway. My campaign is a magic-poor one so the spellcasters are already advantaged vs the itemless non-spellcasters. Making touch spells a 2-round or risky deal will help even things up a little, as well as abiding a lot closer by the principles of WoTC's own rules.

 

[IceBear]

I played a 9th level cleric in a magic poor game, and trust me, clerics are going to do it anyway. I was in the middle of melee all the time and if I wanted to cast a spell, I did it defensively without any problem.

I *like* the idea of a wizard or sorcerer casting spells in melee. You do not. Wizards have lots of touch spells that I have never seen them cast in 2E, such as shocking grasp. With 3E, I've seen it used a lot more and I like it. Again, this is just my experience.

Also, you have admitted it's a magic poor campaign, and, as I've learnt, once you stray from the expected gp and magic items that the party should have at a certain level, lots of things in 3E start to break down without constant tweaking.

I understand that touch attack spells probably take half the time to "cast" as other spells, with the other half of the time being the actual touch.

As for harm nearly every designer has stated it's broken and they even had a sidebar in a Dungeon adventure stating the same thing. Even if it took two rounds to deliver, it's still pretty much broken, IMHO.

IceBear

 

[Uller]

But it's the clerics who are going to be doing it, not the Wizards, anyway. My campaign is a magic-poor one so the spellcasters are already advantaged vs the itemless non-spellcasters. Making touch spells a 2-round or risky deal will help even things up a little, as well as abiding a lot closer by the principles of WoTC's own rules.

Not to change the subject, but if you are playing in a truly magic poor campaign world, then spell casting PCs should be significantly limited. Something like their caster level can not exceed 1/2 or 2/3 of their character level(example: so a "wizard" character might actually be a Wiz 6/Brd 3 or some such...charcter level = 9, caster levels = 6 for wizard and 3 for bard). THAT will balance things between spell casters and non...

As far as cast/move/touch is concerned...I haven't had a problem with it. It certainly isn't the rules "heresy" you seem to be making it out to be. It just prevents touch spells from being relegated to full round actions which, it would seem, is desirable to most people. To me, it isn't much different from allowing characters to draw a weapon, move and deliver a single attack in the same round...

If you think cast Harm, move and touch attack is too much for one round, then perhaps it is _HARM_ that is the problem(because it is).

 

[S'mon]

As far as cast/move/touch is concerned...I haven't had a problem with it. It certainly isn't the rules "heresy" you seem to be making it out to be. It just prevents touch spells from being relegated to full round actions which, it would seem, is desirable to most people. To me, it isn't much different from allowing characters to draw a weapon, move and deliver a single attack in the same round...

I do think draw/move/attack in one round (without quickdraw feat) is very iffy, yes, although it's allowed via the 'charge' action.

 

[Kraedin]

Drawing

I do think draw/move/attack in one round (without quickdraw feat) is very iffy, yes, although it's allowed via the 'charge' action.

Why is it "iffy"? If you have a +1 BAB or more, you can draw a weapon as part of a move action. (Two if you have TWF.) Page 128, PHB.