touch of golden ice + lots of dex damage + undead = ?

[evilbob]

I'm sure this has probably been asked before, but:

If a character uses the Touch of Golden Ice feat to inflict golden ice on a creature normally immune to paralysis (like an undead creature, for which this ravage was obviously designed), but does enough Dex damage to take the creature to zero Dex... what would you folks rule?

Is the "immune to paralysis" creature paralysed? Does it have zero dex but is still able to act? Is it destroyed (as at least one spell/ability to drain Str from undead has suggested happens when a corporeal undead hits zero Str, I think in the LibMor)? Other ideas?

 

[lukelightning]

Undead are immune to ability score damage and drain. So the Icy Golden Cheese touch doesn't work on them.

But even if it did, I don't think immunity to paralysis prevents you from being paralyzed from a 0 dex. Maybe you're not "paralyzed" per se but still can't move with a 0 dex.

After all, things that are immune to death effects can still die...

 

[KarinsDad]

Loss of Dex does not cause the paralysis condition.

Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.

 

[evilbob]

Ravages effect only evil creatures, and are particularly debilitating to evil outsiders - despite the immunity to poison that is common among such creatures.
...
In contrast to most diseases and poisons, all ravages and afflictions are supernatural.
...
An evil elemental or evil undead takes an extra 1 point of damage, and an evil outsider or evil cleric of an evil diety takes an extra 2 points of damage.

This implies to me that undead are affected. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, however.

Ability Damaged
The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.

This implies to me that a creature with a 0 Dex is paralysed.

Add to this the undead immunity to paralyization and you see the question.

Perhaps allow the paralyization since it also effects creatures immune to poison anyway?

Edit: I mean, these ARE "wild and crazy" 3.0 rules we're talking about here.

 

[lukelightning]

From the SRD, emphasis mine:

Constitution
Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).

 

[KarinsDad]

This implies to me that undead are affected. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, however.

It appears that the ravage itself allows it to affect undead. The specific rule (ravage does more ability damage to undead) overrides the general rule (undead not affected by ability damage).

But since there is an explicit rule that Dex 0 = paralysis, the undead are not immobile, even at 0 Dex.

This is actually balanced. The immune creature is affected by most of the effects of the ravage (i.e. dex loss), just not all of them (i.e. paralysis at 0 Dex).

 

[lukelightning]

IF undead can be affected by the ability damage, then they can't move at 0 dex.

From the SRD:

Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.

It doesn't say "paralyzed" it says you can't move at all.

 

[TYPO5478]

Loss of Dex does not cause the paralysis condition.

Agreed. "Paralyzed" is a specific condition that can result from being affected by magic, poison, etc.; unfortunately, "paralyzed" is also a very useful descriptive word to describe someone who has lost the use of their muscles. Dropping to 0 in any particular ability score paralyzes a creature by removing the faculty of movement, not by imposition of a condition. For example, you couldn't cure a 0 Dex score with remove paralysis. Undead are immune to paralysis the special ability, not paralysis by ability damage or drain (assuming there's a way to affect them with ability damage or drain).

To that point, I think that the intent of introducing Ravages and Afflictions was to allow ability damage to creatures (specifically evil creatures) that would normally be immune to such effects. Why else would the rules specifically indicate that undead take extra damage if they can't take any damage at all?

But since there is an explicit rule that Dex 0 = paralysis, the undead are not immobile, even at 0 Dex.

But that's not what the rule says. You quoted it yourself. If Dex 0 meant paralysis, the rules would say "is paralyzed" instead of "cannot move at all." Again, undead are immune to the paralyzed condition, not to being made immobile in general.

 

[KarinsDad]

IF undead can be affected by the ability damage, then they can't move at 0 dex.

From the SRD:


It doesn't say "paralyzed" it says you can't move at all.

But that's not what the rule says. You quoted it yourself. If Dex 0 meant paralysis, the rules would say "is paralyzed" instead of "cannot move at all." Again, undead are immune to the paralyzed condition, not to being made immobile in general.

Except that there is more than one rule:

Ability Damaged
The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.

 

[TYPO5478]

Stupid inconsistent rules!

[EDIT]I agree with evilbob's assessment below.[/EDIT]