Sir Osis of Liver
Explorer
I am.
Touchy situation with my group
- Thread starter Zogg
- Start date
I am.
Darkness
Hand and Eye of Piratecat [Moderator]
I don't see how this issue could possibly be solving without disregarding either the point I just quoted or else without "sucking it up" that the wizard will always outshine the other characters (and, over time, probably more so rather than less).Zogg said:
That is: If you aren't willing to keep a modicum of balance between PCs no matter their actions or even absence, you don't really have a reason to complain that the wizard is too powerful, do you?
D&D 3.0/3.5 isn't really intended for PCs noticeably lower in level than their comrades to be very useful. Either you keep the levels somewhat even (preferably with a difference of no more than 3-4 levels, except possibly if the group is epic-level) or you have to accept that the less powerful PCs won't be able to have much of an effect on most important encounters in the adventure.
Hm. I have a question. What levels are all party members now, and at what level would a brand-new PC start?
Darkness - I just started a PC at 6th level (entry level) and it levelled over the course of the last session (I actually gained almost 10,000XP, if that gives you an idea of the CR the party is facing). We faced a gibbering monster, some creatures that have tremor-sense and come out of the ground (don't know the name), a tribe of ogres w/an ogre magi, two manticores (the wizard & pegasus handled them single-handedly), a group of ghouls with a ghast, and a lone fire giant. As noted my PC is a healthy cleric of Grumbar - and normally would enter melee - but not against most of those creatures. He uses summoning spells and spiritual weapon to fight as well as support spells for the party.
As for the rest of the party, I know there is one other PC that's starting at 6th level and I believe others are anywhere from 6-8, with the wizard far and away on top. Either way, I just don't fall into the "let's give someone XP even if they weren't here" group - I'm cool with starting PCs at a higher level, but not giving absent players XP.
As for the rest of the party, I know there is one other PC that's starting at 6th level and I believe others are anywhere from 6-8, with the wizard far and away on top. Either way, I just don't fall into the "let's give someone XP even if they weren't here" group - I'm cool with starting PCs at a higher level, but not giving absent players XP.
Tsyr
Explorer
I've been in a similar, though not identical, situation...
I was in a group last year where one of the players was the brother of the DM... Technical younger brother, but only by a year or two, and we are college aged, so it's not really relevent.
Average party level was, by the time I quit the group, around 8. The brother's character was level 12, and a half-giant sun-touched (Chosen of the most powerful god in the world) to boot. He had, among other things, a sword that, for 1 hour a day (30 minutes before and after 12:00, I think), ALWAYS scored a confirmed critical if it hit, an axe of some considerable power level, a turtle with the spirit of an ancient wizard bound in it, 500 gold (Mind you, in his world, that's the wealth of a king...), he actually WAS a king of a kingdom by accient (Got mistook for the actual prince, somehow, and then the king got killed...), a number of peices of magical jewelry and armour, and effectivly a follower NPC celestial/rogue/cleric who followed him around and helped him (Who was like 15th level or something), and one time sacrificed her life to bring him back to life when he died (I later ended up resurecting her anyways, for character reasons, but...)
Grrrr.
Ended up getting kicked out of that game because I was "whining too much"... (For those of you who remember my posts, that was the one I was playing the one-armed spider-elf cursed-by-a-god-so-I-couldn't-play-my-original-character-concept character, who started out as nothing of the sort...)
Grrr.
I was in a group last year where one of the players was the brother of the DM... Technical younger brother, but only by a year or two, and we are college aged, so it's not really relevent.
Average party level was, by the time I quit the group, around 8. The brother's character was level 12, and a half-giant sun-touched (Chosen of the most powerful god in the world) to boot. He had, among other things, a sword that, for 1 hour a day (30 minutes before and after 12:00, I think), ALWAYS scored a confirmed critical if it hit, an axe of some considerable power level, a turtle with the spirit of an ancient wizard bound in it, 500 gold (Mind you, in his world, that's the wealth of a king...), he actually WAS a king of a kingdom by accient (Got mistook for the actual prince, somehow, and then the king got killed...), a number of peices of magical jewelry and armour, and effectivly a follower NPC celestial/rogue/cleric who followed him around and helped him (Who was like 15th level or something), and one time sacrificed her life to bring him back to life when he died (I later ended up resurecting her anyways, for character reasons, but...)
Grrrr.
Ended up getting kicked out of that game because I was "whining too much"... (For those of you who remember my posts, that was the one I was playing the one-armed spider-elf cursed-by-a-god-so-I-couldn't-play-my-original-character-concept character, who started out as nothing of the sort...)
Grrr.
Darkness
Hand and Eye of Piratecat [Moderator]
Ok. So the PCs range from levels 6-8 (6-11+ if we include the wizard) and new characters start at 6th level. (i.e., they start at the same level as the lowest character in the party, maybe?)
Having new characters come in at 6th level is all fine and dandy in a party whose levels range from 6-8. So is not giving xp to absent players' characters.
Where it all breaks down here, though, is that this particular level 6-8 party also includes a single ca. 11th-level wizard.
Now, the 8th-level characters can still be somewhat useful, assuming they fill a different role in the party than him. But the rest of you are just plain screwed.
Now, I've never given xp to absent players, either. (Kinda defeats the purpose of actually risking your life and limb if you'd get the xp anyway, doesn't it?)
But if you reach a point at which some PCs overshadow the others by so much that the weaker PCs just don't feel useful any more (and objectively aren't), the DM would do well to intervene to correct the balance a bit. *shrug* Whether one likes to give PCs xp they didn't "earn" in-game, people having is much more important than maintaining any arbitrary pretensions of who "earned" what. And you don't seem to have as much fun as one would hope, so a good DM should take action.
Not that correcting the balance is particularly easy at this point, mind.
Really, if I was the DM in this scenario (well, except that I'd not be female or married, of course
), I'd have a hard time deciding on how to correct the problem.
Hm. Right now, I see two options:
1. Increase all 6th- and 7th-level characters to 8th level and increase the previous 8th-level characters to 9th level. (D&D 3.5 suggests that a 2-level difference isn't a problem and that a 3-level difference isn't a big problem.)
If anyone minds characters getting xp they didn't "earn," they should get a life. Failing that, I'd insist that all weak characters be retired and replaced with more suitable traveling companions for the great wizard (insert-name-here). These new characters start at, say, 9th, 10th or 11th level.
2. Remove the uber-wizard from the party and let his player bring in a new 8th-level character as compensation. He can still continue on with solo adventures, a new party or whatever but he's too strong to hang with the weaker members of the current party. (And really, given his other advantages, he overshadows the 8th-level characters as well - just not by so much that DM action needs to be taken.)
In any case, if the same problem is to be avoided in the future, the character(s) of the highest level should not be allowed to go on very many adventures without the rest of the party.
(Disclaimer: Dear reader, if you have a big level difference in your campaign and it works well for your group, more power to you. Note, though, that this post isn't aimed at you; it's for those who do have a problem of the aforementioned nature. Thank you.)
See, that's exactly the problem here, though.
Having new characters come in at 6th level is all fine and dandy in a party whose levels range from 6-8. So is not giving xp to absent players' characters.
Where it all breaks down here, though, is that this particular level 6-8 party also includes a single ca. 11th-level wizard.
Now, the 8th-level characters can still be somewhat useful, assuming they fill a different role in the party than him. But the rest of you are just plain screwed.
Now, I've never given xp to absent players, either. (Kinda defeats the purpose of actually risking your life and limb if you'd get the xp anyway, doesn't it?)
But if you reach a point at which some PCs overshadow the others by so much that the weaker PCs just don't feel useful any more (and objectively aren't), the DM would do well to intervene to correct the balance a bit. *shrug* Whether one likes to give PCs xp they didn't "earn" in-game, people having is much more important than maintaining any arbitrary pretensions of who "earned" what. And you don't seem to have as much fun as one would hope, so a good DM should take action.
Not that correcting the balance is particularly easy at this point, mind.
Really, if I was the DM in this scenario (well, except that I'd not be female or married, of course
), I'd have a hard time deciding on how to correct the problem.Hm. Right now, I see two options:
1. Increase all 6th- and 7th-level characters to 8th level and increase the previous 8th-level characters to 9th level. (D&D 3.5 suggests that a 2-level difference isn't a problem and that a 3-level difference isn't a big problem.)
If anyone minds characters getting xp they didn't "earn," they should get a life.
Failing that, I'd insist that all weak characters be retired and replaced with more suitable traveling companions for the great wizard (insert-name-here). These new characters start at, say, 9th, 10th or 11th level.2. Remove the uber-wizard from the party and let his player bring in a new 8th-level character as compensation. He can still continue on with solo adventures, a new party or whatever but he's too strong to hang with the weaker members of the current party. (And really, given his other advantages, he overshadows the 8th-level characters as well - just not by so much that DM action needs to be taken.)
In any case, if the same problem is to be avoided in the future, the character(s) of the highest level should not be allowed to go on very many adventures without the rest of the party.
(Disclaimer: Dear reader, if you have a big level difference in your campaign and it works well for your group, more power to you. Note, though, that this post isn't aimed at you; it's for those who do have a problem of the aforementioned nature. Thank you.)
Psionicist
Explorer
Zogg: Create a level 12 character instead of a level 6 character and ask if you can play that one instead.
Darkness - I agree with your analysis and appreciate your post. In general I like when people try to come up with a solution.
I believe my DM knows (or is realizing that) 6th-level PCs just aren't going to 'hang' with the wizard which is why my PC instantly zoomed up to 7th level in one session. In fact, at this rate he should easily be 8th after the next session (assuming he doesn't die by god knows what will be thrown at us) and maybe the wizard isn't getting so much XP. Perhaps she is going through a learning process about mixing very powerful PCs with "henchman" PCs and her husband just happens to be at one end of the spectrum. Perhaps he's overzealous in asking for concessions and she grants them. I don't know the couple very well - only been gaming with them for a few months - so I don't know the whole story. Nevertheless I would think a good DM would do everything they can to avoid this problem. As I said I'll keep an eye out for future examples of bias and or just general bad DMing and bring it up as needed. I'm not sure about giving an insta-boost to some of the weaker party members - I mean, part of the fun is earning your next level. And I really don't see her having her husband roll up a new PC - though I think that would be a great route.
Too bad you don't live here, Darkness, I'd have you as my DM!
I believe my DM knows (or is realizing that) 6th-level PCs just aren't going to 'hang' with the wizard which is why my PC instantly zoomed up to 7th level in one session. In fact, at this rate he should easily be 8th after the next session (assuming he doesn't die by god knows what will be thrown at us) and maybe the wizard isn't getting so much XP. Perhaps she is going through a learning process about mixing very powerful PCs with "henchman" PCs and her husband just happens to be at one end of the spectrum. Perhaps he's overzealous in asking for concessions and she grants them. I don't know the couple very well - only been gaming with them for a few months - so I don't know the whole story. Nevertheless I would think a good DM would do everything they can to avoid this problem. As I said I'll keep an eye out for future examples of bias and or just general bad DMing and bring it up as needed. I'm not sure about giving an insta-boost to some of the weaker party members - I mean, part of the fun is earning your next level. And I really don't see her having her husband roll up a new PC - though I think that would be a great route.
Too bad you don't live here, Darkness, I'd have you as my DM!
Those are some very sad stories. I really feal bad for some of you for being in such unpleasant situations. I was rather lucky. Both me and my wife DM's two different games. I ran a Greyhawk game (switching later to Dark Sun) game while my wife ran Alternity (later switching to VtM) and we each participated in the other's game. We both got heckled slightly by our fellow gaming group for being able to 'sway the judge with favors' so to speak, but in actuality, we kept each other's game in the strictest of confidence. Only rarely did my wife give my any kind of 'privledged information' about something going on in her game and only to ask for help or advice since she was new to gaming and even newer to running a game. None of the other participants ever felt that me or my wife gave the other preferrential treatment, except the fact that of course, each of us was able to regularly attend the other's game and thus were a slight notch above the other players, but we made exception to those who only missed a game or two here and there by having the previously absent PC present a small 'story-time' telling of the PCs exploits during his or her absence and awarding compensating XP for such (around half of what the rest of the group gained for participating).
As for advice to those who are in a game with 'issues' like those presented in the above posts, don't wait to do something about it. A small problem is easy to deal with, especially between friends. If that problem is left unchecked, it will indeed grow out of hand (the uber wizard with his pet pegasus and the substantially more powerful than the rest of the group NPC follower are prime examples of problems that have probably been around for some time). A large problem or one that has been around for a while is much more difficult to deal with. Some people do not take as kindly to criticism so always try and deal with the situation in a mature fashion. Talk privately with the people in your game who are creating the problem since people tend to be less defensive when not faced by a group of complaints. If others feal the same way that you do, tell the problem DM or player that you are not alone in your thinking, but did not want to make a fiasco about it in front of everyone else. Let the other players who feel likewise also discuss it in private with the person as well. Give the game some time to work out the problem and see if it persists (more than just a single session, change rarely happens overnight). If it does, simply ask the other players who feel likewise to - and I don't know how else to phrase this - boycott the game.
Remeber, although many DMs will tell you that your sessions are 'their' game and they will do what they want (a mindset unfortunately backed up in many rulebooks), there is no game without a group to play it. Tell the DM or offending player(s) that you will not participate in their game unless things become more fair to everyone involved. If that still doesn't work, then start your own game with the players that feel the same as you do about the situation. Express an open and heartfelt invitation to the problem individuals to join if you are still friends with them and try not to make the same mistakes in your game that they have. Then, when the formerly offending players have joined your new game, shove their PCs into a den of dozens of ravenous tembo and watch their horror as their PCs are ripped to shreds and devoured!!!! *murderous cackle*. . . . errr . . . sorry about that. Won't happen again. I promise
As for advice to those who are in a game with 'issues' like those presented in the above posts, don't wait to do something about it. A small problem is easy to deal with, especially between friends. If that problem is left unchecked, it will indeed grow out of hand (the uber wizard with his pet pegasus and the substantially more powerful than the rest of the group NPC follower are prime examples of problems that have probably been around for some time). A large problem or one that has been around for a while is much more difficult to deal with. Some people do not take as kindly to criticism so always try and deal with the situation in a mature fashion. Talk privately with the people in your game who are creating the problem since people tend to be less defensive when not faced by a group of complaints. If others feal the same way that you do, tell the problem DM or player that you are not alone in your thinking, but did not want to make a fiasco about it in front of everyone else. Let the other players who feel likewise also discuss it in private with the person as well. Give the game some time to work out the problem and see if it persists (more than just a single session, change rarely happens overnight). If it does, simply ask the other players who feel likewise to - and I don't know how else to phrase this - boycott the game.
Remeber, although many DMs will tell you that your sessions are 'their' game and they will do what they want (a mindset unfortunately backed up in many rulebooks), there is no game without a group to play it. Tell the DM or offending player(s) that you will not participate in their game unless things become more fair to everyone involved. If that still doesn't work, then start your own game with the players that feel the same as you do about the situation. Express an open and heartfelt invitation to the problem individuals to join if you are still friends with them and try not to make the same mistakes in your game that they have. Then, when the formerly offending players have joined your new game, shove their PCs into a den of dozens of ravenous tembo and watch their horror as their PCs are ripped to shreds and devoured!!!! *murderous cackle*. . . . errr . . . sorry about that. Won't happen again. I promise
