Toughness Variant

[kenjib]

I think you should be able to trade a toughness feat for a better one (dwarf, dragon) once you can live up to the Fort requirement.

What is the advantage of doing it that way over having it scale up like a good save progression? It's pretty much the same effect except scaling gives you a smooth increase gradient instead of two jumps.

 

[Outergod]

My house rule for toughness is 1 hp/level, effectively a +2 Con for purposes of determining hitpoints. It can only be taken once.

That's a nice idea...

I was also toying with something along the lines of:

Toughenss: +4 HP and You Con bonus in HP every 5 levels...of course that's not well thought out but you can see where I'm going with it.

Along those lines I'm thinking about doing something with Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude to give a +1 (or +2) bonus when you take the feat and another +1 every 5 character levels...would make it a little more desireable. As those "Save" feats stand I would never want to take them.

Another question (not trying to hijack the thread): What if you already have an 18 Wis and a PrC requires Iron Will? You already have a +4 Bonus to Will saves whereas someone with a 10 Wis would only have a +2 even with Iron Will...doesn't the character with an 18 Wis already have a "more iron" will than the character with Iron Will? I'm thinking about changing any PrCs that require a Save feat to say something like, "+2 or Greater Will save bonus from Wisdom or Iron Will"...

Outergod

 

[CRGreathouse]

What if you already have an 18 Wis and a PrC requires Iron Will? You already have a +4 Bonus to Will saves whereas someone with a 10 Wis would only have a +2 even with Iron Will...doesn't the character with an 18 Wis already have a "more iron" will than the character with Iron Will? I'm thinking about changing any PrCs that require a Save feat to say something like, "+2 or Greater Will save bonus from Wisdom or Iron Will"

The point is to require less-than-useful ("sink") feats in exchange for the power of the class. Without such a requirement, you'd have to weaken the PrCs...

 

[Outergod]

The point is to require less-than-useful ("sink") feats in exchange for the power of the class. Without such a requirement, you'd have to weaken the PrCs...

Yes but it is a shame to make a PC piss away a feat for PrC X when PrC Y might not require one of the less desireable feas.
I don't know...the whole logic of sink feats kindof upsets me...
but that's what House Rules are for I guess.

Outergod

 

[CRGreathouse]

the whole logic of sink feats kindof upsets me

What do you do instead in your campaign for PrC?

 

[Outergod]

What do you do instead in your campaign for PrC?

Pretty much just what I stated in the above post...For example: If a PrC requires Iron Will I will let a PC with a Wisdom bonus of +2 or greater get by without the Iron Will feat. It pretty much balance out if everyone gets to do it (bad guys included). And the players are completely happy with it...Most of them really hate the Save feats (and Toughness) because they seem underpwered when compared to other feats...

I'm still trying to figure out the best way to go in future campaigns...try to beef up the save feats or eliminate the requirements if you have a high enough ability score.

Outergod

 

[CRGreathouse]

Do you tone down the prestige classes (since you don't have to sink feats) or power up the core classes to compensate?

 

[Red Baron]

I guess I must be too old-school: I make my players roll for hp at 1st level, and, as a result, 4 out of 5 PCs took Toughness as a beginning feat (the only one who didn't is the dwarf paladin with the 16 Con...), and one of them (an elf wizard with a 10 Con) took Toughness a second time as soon as he could get it!!

My point?: Toughness is a valuable feat if you don't "soften" your game by giving out max hp at first level.

Additional note (houserules): We also use a WP/VP system now, and my houserule is that Toughness gives 1 WP and the rest are VP. Further, as has been suggested in lots of other places, I allow an additional VP each time one takes Toughness, in the same way Inner Strength (from PsH) works.

 

[Outergod]

Do you tone down the prestige classes (since you don't have to sink feats) or power up the core classes to compensate?

I don't do either one. Most of my players have been around long enough to have a basic "career path" for their characters so they have to make the decision at char creation for things like, "Do I want to put a 14 in Wis or take Iron Will so I can get PrC X at Yth level?" And, since everyone in the campaign world can do it it pretty much balances out. I haven't really seen anything that I consider overly powerful just because I don't require Iron Will as a prereq.

Outergod

 

[CRGreathouse]

Well, admit it or not, the sink feats are what makes the PrCs balanced with standard classes. Look at the archmage class for a great example.