Toughness vs Durable

[Istar]

I thought Toughness was pretty good.

Then after learning about healing surges, plus a Martial Mastery skill that lets you do them as a free action when you Crit.

I am thinking maybe Durable is better, as at level 21 Toughness is only 15 HP.

Whereas at level 21 the use of 2 healing surges is worth a lot more, isnt it ??

 

[Lord Ernie]

It's a choice, really. 15 immtediate HP over 2 healing surges. Also note that those extra HP make every individual surge bigger, gaining a little bit more HP in the process.

For instance, a wizard who starts out with 10 Con with Toughness has 117 HP at level 21, and 7 surges (+2 Con from levels) with 29 HP/Surge. The same wizard with Durable instead of toughness has 102 HP and 9 surges with 25 HP/Surge.

Choice really depends on party makeup, build, and playstyle. My Blood Mage, for instance, would really rather use those two extra surges for some Soul Burn goodness.

 

[Ryujin]

Well stated. It really depends upon the character and party make-up. Toughness gives at least one more HP in a healing surge and the obvious benefit of higher hits. Durable gives the POTENTIAL for greater effective hits, as long as the party make-up or character's abilities/items can support it. Our party's cleric isn't heavy on healing, so I can't depend on getting more than a Second Wind during a fight. For me, it made sense to get Toughness first, though I'll pick Durable later on.

 

[Mengu]

You could always do Toughness at 1st through 4th, Durable 5th through 10th, Toughness 11th through 14th, etc. At lower levels the cushion toughness provides is quite nice. Monsters tend to use their recharge powers, encounter powers and action points early in the combat, and that can add up to a lot of damage. Toughness can give you the buffer you need in order to deal with that and gives your leader some breathing room to decide when and where to use their encounter healing powers.

 

[Milambus]

A few weeks ago I made up a spreadsheet that compares Durable and Toughness. I looked at levels 1-30, different roles (base HPs) with different amounts of Con. When it comes to total HPS per day, Durable is always better than Toughness.

The difference is probably within 10%, and Current HPs can be more valuable than Daily Total if you dont have much healing in your party. Vice Versa, if you have alot of healing in your party (especially clerics), more surges actually mean even more HPs per day.

 

[cmbarona]

Huh... that's interesting. I would think Warlords would use more surges in a day. Clerics, after all, have stuff like Cure X Wounds that heals AS IF spending a surge. I can imagine burning through my allies' surges pretty fast with just Rousing Words. Nice to know, though.

 

[Elric]

A few weeks ago I made up a spreadsheet that compares Durable and Toughness. I looked at levels 1-30, different roles (base HPs) with different amounts of Con. When it comes to total HPS per day, Durable is always better than Toughness.

This is not always true, though it tends to be true at higher levels within each tier.

A level 1 fighter with 13 Con, for example, has 28 HP and 10 surges (for 7) without Toughness. With Toughness he's at 33 HP, 10 surges for 8, for a total of 113 HP a day. With Durable he's at 28 HP, 12 surges for 7, for a total of 112 HP per day. Very small edge to Toughness.

If I up his Con to 16, for example, then he ends up with 31 HP (Surge for 7) without Toughness and 36 HP (Surge for 9) with Toughness, at 12 surges. This means his daily HP total is 144 with Toughness, 115 without Toughness, and 129 with Durable. In this case (that Toughness increases your surge value by 2 despite being +5 HP is the key feature, plus being at a low level within a tier) the benefits of Toughness on HP/day are basically twice as great as the benefit of Durable on HP/day.

This is just HP/day, of course. Having more actual HP at any given time (Toughness) is a significant benefit in and of itself.

 

[Herschel]

It also helps mitigate stat dependency, especially at low levels. For example, say you want a Human Swordmage with max INT and secondary to strength. In the Forgotten Realsm, you can choose a Thayan background, Toughness and Durability as feats and it is as if you had a good CON stat.

Or for a Cleric you could boost WIS, etc., have an Impilturian background, take toughness and Durability and again be as if you had another high stat. The durability is then very good for an early level character. If it gets to the point where the durability bubble is no longer as important, they can be re-trained.

Granted, I would think their are better feats in most cases for these characters, but your mileage may vary.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I think it is a matter of taste. Me personally? I would rather have the HPs up front, gaining the +5 from Toughness. There is no guarantee that you'll get to use those healing surges when you want or need them. And using your Second Wind during combat costs you an action, but having a +5 hps from the get-go doesn't.

 

[Wik]

I'm with RM-2 on this one. I'd go with toughness, since in my experience, the group rarely runs out of Healing Surges. Those extra hit points, especially at lower levels, can really help you out (especially because they make your surges bigger!)

That being said, there's something to be said for taking toughness until 5th level, and then retraining it for Durability. Another plus here is that, even though you're retraining your character, you're basically keeping the character's flavour (a guy tougher than he looks).

Another thing to think of: in 4e, you basically gain 5 hit points a level. Toughness is essentially saying "hit points-wise, you're one level higher".