Toughness vs Durable

[keterys]

From my personal experience playing, Durable would not have helped any of my characters in any game. That is to say I've never been hurt with 0 surges left over dozens of sessions.

From my personal experience DMing, Durable would have helped a few people. I've reduced a rogue to 0 surges once, a cleric once, warlord once... they mostly just rest afterwards, but the cleric used a belt of sacrifice and cure light wounds to cover him and the rogue had to go one fight playing careful.

Toughness would have helped far more often - at least 90% for defenders, 75% overall for characters. Probably least useful for wizards and archer rangers who so often can avoid taking damage.

 

[jgsugden]

Durable provides you an extra 50% of your maximum hit points as a reserve for the day. To get to that reserve, you need to spend all of your other surges first. Unless you've worked down to 1 or 0 surges left, you've received no benefit from Durable (if you have it).

On the other hand, Toughness provided immediate beefits:

[2 or 3]/5/[7 or 8] hit points before you're bloodied.
5/10/15 extra hit points before you're at 0.
1 or 2 / 2 or 3 / 3 or 4 extra hit points per surge.

An 11th level fighter with 90 hit points (15 con) and 11 surges would have an available hit point pool of 332 hit points. Durable increases that pool by 45 to 377, while toughness only increases the pool to 365 - but you get to enjoy the benefits earlier.

You have more hit points you can lose before bloodied/dying, and you regain more hit points per surge.

You and your allies don't need to spend as many actions focused on getting you a surge, as you'll need a surge less desperately.

You have a finite number of opportunities to surge per combat. Toughness increases the number of hit points you can have per comnat, while durable does not.

To me, toughness is clearly the better choice, but I can understand why some people might have differing opinions.

 

[Mistwell]

Durable provides you an extra 50% of your maximum hit points as a reserve for the day. To get to that reserve, you need to spend all of your other surges first. Unless you've worked down to 1 or 0 surges left, you've received no benefit from Durable (if you have it).

On the other hand, Toughness provided immediate beefits:

[2 or 3]/5/[7 or 8] hit points before you're bloodied.
5/10/15 extra hit points before you're at 0.
1 or 2 / 2 or 3 / 3 or 4 extra hit points per surge.

An 11th level fighter with 90 hit points (15 con) and 11 surges would have an available hit point pool of 332 hit points. Durable increases that pool by 45 to 377, while toughness only increases the pool to 365 - but you get to enjoy the benefits earlier.

You have more hit points you can lose before bloodied/dying, and you regain more hit points per surge.

You and your allies don't need to spend as many actions focused on getting you a surge, as you'll need a surge less desperately.

You have a finite number of opportunities to surge per combat. Toughness increases the number of hit points you can have per comnat, while durable does not.

To me, toughness is clearly the better choice, but I can understand why some people might have differing opinions.

I agree. The odds Durable will come up for my non-front-line character are very low, but the odds toughness will come up is nearly 100% every combat encounter. I think front line characters who get lots of leader-healing every encounter are more likely to benefit from durable.

 

[Sunglare]

You're also potentially a big battery of magical power, for those rituals that require the spending of healing surges. As a Warlock with only 6 surges, I don't have a whole lot to blow on Arcane Lock.

Just curious but I'm not seeing how Arcane Lock and Healing Surges go hand n hand.

For my own 2 cents just take both feats. Get the best of both worlds. If your human you can get them both at level 1 or a two-weapon style ranger.

 

[Ryujin]

Just curious but I'm not seeing how Arcane Lock and Healing Surges go hand n hand.

Sorry, I meant Knock but typed Arcane Lock instead. Knock blows a healing surge every time that it's used. So do several other rituals. By having another character take part in the ritual, even if they don't have the Ritual Caster ability, gives you the ability to spend their healing surges rather than your own. For a wimp like my 6 surge Warlock, that's a pretty handy thing.

 

[Hawkeye]

My Paladin has taken Durable, not for himself, but to have extra surges to use for Lay on Hands.

Hawkeye