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toughness

Rystil Arden

First Post
reanjr said:
Maybe it should grant an additional HP per level from that point on (non-retroactive; Improved Toughness IMO is a bit overpowered, especially taken multiple times).
Improved Toughness does not state that it can be taken multiple times. However, even if it could be taken multiple times, is it worth it to take it every time and have a character who survives damaging blows but can't really do anything interesting (not to mention still dying from save-or-die spells)? I would say no, unless you are planning on having your body used as a ride for a Ghost Ride using psion. Another option to help Toughness is to go the Arcana Unearthed route and have it give twice the character's Con bonus at the level you take it (if that is more than 3), so it scales up as you raise your Con. This is better for a high-Con character than Improved Toughness at low levels, but it is not as powerful at high levels (unless you have 40-50 Constitution, but if you did, you wouldn't need a feat to give you more HP).
 

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Crothian

First Post
reanjr said:
Improved Toughness IMO is a bit overpowered, especially taken multiple times).

Hit points just aren't that powerful. Even in games where I gave the playes max HP for every level it never got out of hand. HP are a passive feature that is the easy to deal with since pretty much everything in the game damages them. Add in the high level games where save and dies and other important spells go around HP.
 

reanjr

First Post
Crothian said:
Hit points just aren't that powerful. Even in games where I gave the playes max HP for every level it never got out of hand. HP are a passive feature that is the easy to deal with since pretty much everything in the game damages them. Add in the high level games where save and dies and other important spells go around HP.

In my experience, HP makes a huge difference. Especially low HP. I see this feat as designed for wizards and sorcerers. Bumping up your staying power by more than 25% on average is huge for these characters. Take a human fighter for armor prof. and then go wizard, taking toughness (if it did grant +1 hp/level) as your first two feats at first level and you've got almost a full arcane caster with exactly the same AC potential and better HP than the fighter (till around mid to high level where those slight differences don't matter so much).

HP is the only serious drawback to Wizard/Sorcerer with a Fighter dip. Judicious spell, scroll, wand, and metamagic use only negates the penalty for wearing armor.
 

Rystil Arden

First Post
reanjr said:
In my experience, HP makes a huge difference. Especially low HP. I see this feat as designed for wizards and sorcerers. Bumping up your staying power by more than 25% on average is huge for these characters. Take a human fighter for armor prof. and then go wizard, taking toughness (if it did grant +1 hp/level) as your first two feats at first level and you've got almost a full arcane caster with exactly the same AC potential and better HP than the fighter (till around mid to high level where those slight differences don't matter so much).

HP is the only serious drawback to Wizard/Sorcerer with a Fighter dip. Judicious spell, scroll, wand, and metamagic use only negates the penalty for wearing armor.
Hmm...I would have to say that the wizard you describe, while he might make a good eldritch knight, is going to be a far inferior caster to a normal wizard (granted I understand you were trying to help him survive). Losing the level in wizard is big, but wearing heavy armour and casting all your spells Stilled/from wands is extremely inefficient, a simple mage armour should keep your AC at a fine level, especially if you are a halfling, with good Dex and Size bonus. That said, HP does indeed make a huge difference for wizards, as they have unplayably low HP without some bonus. That's why wizards invest in Con; they don't have enough feats to waste on Toughness (especially now that they need to buy two feats in Spell Focus to counteract a single save-up feat, why couldn't they just leave Spell Focus at 2 and outlaw Greater Spell Focus?).

An important principle about defense and HP are reflected in Sean K Reynolds's logic in his variant feat point system: defending yourself is in general inferior to making your actions more effective because your enemies get to choose whether you need to defend yourself (and what you need to defend against!) whereas you get to choose what actions you take. If your wizard takes a fighter level and puts on all that armour, the enemies may very well ignore him. At 5th-level, he presents less of a threat than anyone else in the party, since barring magic items he is casting 1st-level spells that are Stilled, so the enemy is smart to ignore him. The same principle occurred once in a game I DMed where one of the characters got his AC up to 26 (before buffs!) at level 3, but his damage output was horrendous, so enemies would waste at most one round attacking him and missing, then turn to his softer and more effective allies, rendering his defenses worthless.
 

reanjr

First Post
Rystil Arden said:
Hmm...I would have to say that the wizard you describe, while he might make a good eldritch knight, is going to be a far inferior caster to a normal wizard (granted I understand you were trying to help him survive). Losing the level in wizard is big, but wearing heavy armour and casting all your spells Stilled/from wands is extremely inefficient, a simple mage armour should keep your AC at a fine level, especially if you are a halfling, with good Dex and Size bonus. That said, HP does indeed make a huge difference for wizards, as they have unplayably low HP without some bonus. That's why wizards invest in Con; they don't have enough feats to waste on Toughness (especially now that they need to buy two feats in Spell Focus to counteract a single save-up feat, why couldn't they just leave Spell Focus at 2 and outlaw Greater Spell Focus?).

Well, you have to also take into account all the spells that CAN be cast in armor (have no verbal component). Mage Armor doesn't have the ability to be enhanced to +5 like plate mail does (or Elven Chain for an even lower ASF when you want to try anyway). In my experience, I've not seen a wizard in need of feats. Sorcerers, yes, but not wizards. Most wizard players I've seen at later levels are struggling somewhat to find a feat that they feel they really need. Of course, different play styles puts different stress on things. Wizards are just too easy to take out and make wonderful targets due to their power on top of that. Abjurers are the exception, of course. ;)

An important principle about defense and HP are reflected in Sean K Reynolds's logic in his variant feat point system: defending yourself is in general inferior to making your actions more effective because your enemies get to choose whether you need to defend yourself (and what you need to defend against!) whereas you get to choose what actions you take. If your wizard takes a fighter level and puts on all that armour, the enemies may very well ignore him. At 5th-level, he presents less of a threat than anyone else in the party, since barring magic items he is casting 1st-level spells that are Stilled, so the enemy is smart to ignore him. The same principle occurred once in a game I DMed where one of the characters got his AC up to 26 (before buffs!) at level 3, but his damage output was horrendous, so enemies would waste at most one round attacking him and missing, then turn to his softer and more effective allies, rendering his defenses worthless.

I've never found Eldritch Knight to be necessary in the least due to wand use. I'd also like to point out that if your defenses are so high that no one attacks you, it does not make your defenses useless. It's makes them 100% efficient. I've seen this most often with Clerics. Depending on the makeup of the enemy forces, it sometimes is just tactically dumb to attack a cleric who you can't take down, anyway. They have the least damage potential of the four main classes (strangely, in my campaigns it seems the rogue has the highest in most encounters). Also, if you take a 4th or 6th level wizard instead of a 5th level one, the power loss is much less since they still have access to the same spells.

Even a ignoring a fighter dip, taking the feat as a human bonus would give a wizard way more lasting power than the minor dimished ability of one less metamagic or item creation feat.
 

Rystil Arden

First Post
reanjr said:
Well, you have to also take into account all the spells that CAN be cast in armor (have no verbal component). Mage Armor doesn't have the ability to be enhanced to +5 like plate mail does (or Elven Chain for an even lower ASF when you want to try anyway). In my experience, I've not seen a wizard in need of feats. Sorcerers, yes, but not wizards. Most wizard players I've seen at later levels are struggling somewhat to find a feat that they feel they really need. Of course, different play styles puts different stress on things. Wizards are just too easy to take out and make wonderful targets due to their power on top of that. Abjurers are the exception, of course. ;)



I've never found Eldritch Knight to be necessary in the least due to wand use. I'd also like to point out that if your defenses are so high that no one attacks you, it does not make your defenses useless. It's makes them 100% efficient. I've seen this most often with Clerics. Depending on the makeup of the enemy forces, it sometimes is just tactically dumb to attack a cleric who you can't take down, anyway. They have the least damage potential of the four main classes (strangely, in my campaigns it seems the rogue has the highest in most encounters). Also, if you take a 4th or 6th level wizard instead of a 5th level one, the power loss is much less since they still have access to the same spells.

Even a ignoring a fighter dip, taking the feat as a human bonus would give a wizard way more lasting power than the minor dimished ability of one less metamagic or item creation feat.
In my campaign, the wizard is constantly in turmoil over his low number of feats, so it seems that our campaign styles differ. Perhaps you limit wizards strictly to the PHB feats? It seems that way if you think that wizards' only option instead of Toughness is to take Item Creation and Metamagic feats. Also, wizards in my campaign often join organisations that offer prestige classes, which cuts down on several of the wizard bonus feats.

That being said, you pointed out yourself, quite correctly, that the HP gain and AC bonus from your strategy aren't as important at mid to higher levels, but then you suggested +5 full plate, which hopefully doesn't fall into the PCs' hands until those same mid to higher levels. Abjurers are also not usually much more defensively-minded than the average low-level wizard (in fact, Mage Armour is Conjuration, and Shield has been gutted like a fish in 3.5). On to spells with no somatic components: In the PH there are these:
{Blindness/Deafness, Blink, Mass Charm Monster [but none of the other charms], Contact Other Plane, Darkness, Dimension Door, Displacement, Feather Fall, Flare, Geas [both], Hold Portal, Knock, Light, Disjunction, Irresistible Dance, Phase Door, Power Words, Prismatic Sphere, Shout, Suggestion, Teleport, Teleportation Circle, Time Stop, Tongues, True Strike, Ventriloquism, Wail of the Banshee, Wish}

So what do we have? A bunch of 8th and 9th level spells, plus the transport spells, two good protective spells, one terrible 4th level attack spell (Shout), a few out-of-combat curiosities like Hold Portal, and then the three low level active spells True Strike, Blindness/Deafness, and Suggestion. This is extremely restrictive, and it includes only one of the spells my PCs would actually use for levels 1-3.

As for the 100% effectiveness of a prohibitive defense, this is only true if the character is also effective (for instance, keeping the baddies away from the cleric due to high AC is very good, since it ensures more healing for the party). The character in my campaign with high AC was not effective, so his AC was meaningless, and the armoured wizard loses more than one level of spellcasting (since he must continually use his highest level spell slots to memorise spells of one level lower that are Stilled). Most wizards make good targets because they are powerful and easy to kill. This guy is wimpy and more difficult to kill, and if I was fighting him, I would attack someone else. Obviously, the middle-ground is the best place to be. You want a wizard who is as protected as he can be without gutting his own power. Wearing full-plate as a Fighter1/Wizard1, assuming you have good Dexterity (which incurs less of an opportunity-cost than the armour does), only increases AC by 3 over Mage Armour. If your Wisdom is passable, you could instead take the level in Monk rather than Fighter, netting a cool +2 to all saves and another AC increase, making the Full Plate, with its spell failure, seem very silly. Yes, eventually the armour can become enchanted, so that's why you look into spells that give a larger Armour Bonus to AC (Greater Luminous Armour gives +8 armour and the bright light gives melee opponents another -4 to hit you).

A halfling Monk1/Wizard1 with 32 Point Buy can easily have 20 AC after casting Mage Armour, the same AC as if he were wearing non-mithral full plate. If he was really trying, he could get even more AC, and the great thing is that Cat's Grace and Owl's Wisdom both give him +2 to AC (the full-plate guy gets no AC bonus from them).
 

Rystil Arden

First Post
Oh, sorry I forgot to mention wand use: If you are going to be casting all your spells (except the ones I had in brackets above) from wands, you should probably just be some class other than wizard and take one level in sorcerer so you can use the wands (or just get Use Magic Device high enough to make the DC 20 check reliably).
 


shilsen

Adventurer
Shellman said:
Wouldn't that in-turn make Improved toughness pointless if Toughness gave 3 hp per HD.
I think Jdvn1 meant that they house-ruled Toughness to give 1 extra hp per HD as Improved Toughness does and didn't use Improved Toughness.
 

Kalendraf

Explorer
Toughness is good for low-level characters and monsters. Once you get past 3rd level, Improved Toughness is obviously better. So why bother with it?

1) You're playing a one-shot or short term low-level character. When I played at the World D&D event, each of us had to make a 1st level character, and we knew it wasn't going to be used past that. I ended up playing a sorcerer and took Toughness. That allowed him to survive until the end, even after the players with the healers had to leave early.

2) As a DM, you decide to beef up some of the low-level bad guys. A lot of the default monsters in the MM have Alertness which might be ok for a few of the scouts or patrols, but beyond that it seems to be a wasted feat. Swap that for Toughness on some of them and you wind up with some "toughs" mixed in that are harder to bring down. I do this a lot for bandits, goblins, orcs, etc, and it works out really well.

3) You need it for a pre-requisite. I'm not sure which PrC's or other feats meet this, but it's possible that some do.

4) The DM could house rule that Toughness is a requirement for Improved Toughness, but that may be going a bit overboard. As it is now, I don't see Improved Toughness taken all that often, and this might squash both of them.
 

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