TPK Your Entire Party

[RigaMortus2]

Most PCs are not married to other PCs. Most PCs do not have PC children in the party. You are equating two disparate situations. Family versus Friends / Associates. Apples and Oranges. What one evil mobster might not do to his wife, he might do to his best friend when provoked. And guess what? Some mobsters do beat their wives and kids. Many of them are violent people.


Mobsters wipe out other mobsters in their own mobs on occasion. It is how they sometimes advance. It is how they maintain order. Granted, most mobsters tend to not do so too often because internal mob wars cut into profits. But, even a false rumor could get two mobster friends at each other's throats. That's the way it is with evil people.

Their values and morals are evilly distorted.


And, murder typically requires either a perceived gain (be that monetary, revenge, or whatever), or just a spur of the moment rage. If Evil PC One murders PCs Two through Four, typically he quadruples his wealth. For many evil people, greed is easy to justify.

But, there is little difference between a group of mobsters who have worked for several years together and Evil PCs in a party who have worked for several years together. If the gain is sufficient or even from a misunderstanding, they can easily wipe out each other.

Sure, they have friends. Sure they have family.

But, we are talking evil business associates here (both the mob and evil PCs in a game). They may be friends, but then again, they may not. And even if they are friends, business is business. Do you really think that real life mobsters 100% trust their best friends if they too are in the mob?

The main difference between the Mob and a party of Evil PCs is that the Mob tends to enforce semi-reasonable behavior on their violent members through fear of retribution. Evil PCs might not have as much of that unless the game is set up for them to each belong to organizations which could seek revenge.


Btw, a closer analogy to a party of Evil PCs would not be the Mob, but rather would be Outlaw Gangs in the West in the mid to late 1800s. Many of them were flat out evil and killed their associates when convenient. Some of them killed their associates for the reward money.


Not all Evil people are the same, but by definition, they are Evil. Not Neutral. Not Good. Sure, a specific Evil person might have a code against killing other humans or killing close associates or some such. But, that would be the exception, not the rule for Evil.



This does not state that they do this except against others in their party.


In fact, look at Good PCs. They often murder perceived enemies at the drop of a hat. The entire game system is designed for theft and murder. What is so special about PCs? Do they have "PC" stamped on their foreheads??? Other PCs do not touch?

Presumably in some games.

What you really have to be careful about is when a group of mobsters gets together to play D&D and one of them makes an Evil PC with the intent to kill the other PCs in his party, who are also played by mobsters.

 

[RigaMortus2]

If an evil creature never performs evil acts or a good creature never performs good acts, how can they claim to be evil or good respectively?

Let's say there is this shoe maker in town. Every day, the shoe maker fantasizes about killing his customers. He fantasizes on how he would do it, where he would hide the bodies, and what his alibi would be. But he never commits the act for fear of the law. What is his alignment?

Is it the act or the intention that makes on evil?

 

[Quidam]

Is it the act or the intention that makes on evil?

The inention. A chain devil kept perpetually under hold monster may be unable to perform evil acts and yet still be a blip on detect evil's radar.

The reason we use actions, though, is that they are observable and proveable.

 

[Seeten]

Paladins aside, alignment is a vital statistical component of most D&D games ... especially regarding spell effects and qualifications for prestige classes.

-Samir

What prevents you from adjudicating a PC's alignment? If my sheet says LG, and you feel its CG, why wouldnt protect from Chaos work on me?

Dont understand your assertion.

 

[Seeten]

As a DM, I have a fairly flexible view of RPG morality ... but I always reserve the right to change a PC's alignment if they are not played in fashion consistent with their stated ethos.

A character concept ultimately belongs to the player who created it, however (IMO) a DM is free to interpret this concept. Although you have some excellent points, I cannot support a position that denies a DM's right to adjudicate PC alignment.

Also, some people do think both Sutherlands (father and son) are horrible actors.

-Samir

All I ever hear about 24 is how great it is, and how much people love Jack Bauer.

 

[KarinsDad]

Is it the act or the intention that makes on evil?

According to the DMG?

Actions dictate alignments, not statements by players.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Clarifications

What prevents you from adjudicating a PC's alignment?

Nothing.

If my sheet says LG, and you feel its CG, why wouldnt protect from Chaos work on me?

A moot point. I don't game with players who absolutely refuse to alter their character sheet after one of my rulings.

Dont understand your assertion.

Which one?

-Samir

 

[Seeten]

The one where you make this claim:

Paladins aside, alignment is a vital statistical component of most D&D games ... especially regarding spell effects and qualifications for prestige classes.

I'm done discussing it with you, since you've pulled out the "I wouldn't game with you, you're a bad man" card, but suffice to say, as I've said all along, I work WITH people, not at cross purposes, and if you want to claim I'm CG, I have no problem whatsoever writing it on my sheet, or writing chaotic lawful neutral evil good on my sheet, if that makes you happier. I personally couldnt care less.

I suggest in the future, if you desire actual dialogue, you discuss the points being made, and don't try to pull sentence fragments out of context to make statements about how people who "Dont change their sheet" or whatever are bad people.

The sheet will always have the old value, until you state that its changed, by the by, just for future reference, unless your players develop telepathy.

 

[KarinsDad]

I suggest in the future, if you desire actual dialogue, you discuss the points being made, and don't try to pull sentence fragments out of context to make statements about how people who "Dont change their sheet" or whatever are bad people.

The sheet will always have the old value, until you state that its changed, by the by, just for future reference, unless your players develop telepathy.

Just for the record, he never said you were a bad person.

He inferred from your statement that LG was written on your sheet that you refused to make it CG, even though that was his ruling. It was merely a misunderstanding, but then again, you have been so sensitive and defensive in this entire thread that you appear to be blind to what people actually write.

Like irdeggman said:

"Please chill out here."

It's just a discussion.

 

[Seeten]

I'm perfectly chill.

There have been a lot of statements made up, or made out, or seemingly deliberately misinterpreted to make it appear like I somehow "am out to get" people or something, when the statements I have made, taken as a whole, are completely the opposite.

Simply put, its obvious the reason most groups don't allow evil is most of the players, and most of the DM's are not mature enough to handle it, or do not trust the rest of their group to be able to handle it, which is not to say "Everyone who doesnt agree with me is immature" simply the reaction on this thread to the very idea of it is, I believe indicative of where gaming groups clearly breakdown on the issue.

I do think it severely shortchanges the creative process, and limits the concepts dramatically, but certainly that isnt the end of the world, it just makes it a less interesting place.