Trading age for skill ranks?

[Shalewind]

I think we are missing the point of Willpax's request here. He has stated:

I'm not as interested in balance so much as I am some campaign-specific flavor (being non-human in my campaign carries with it much other baggage).

So

But, IMO you should never just say "Elves live longer, so they should get 4 extra skill points", because that takes away part of the Human's racial advantages. Forget "realism" in a fantasy setting, game balance is important too.

May not be the answer he is looking for. Nor does Willpax seem to interested in NPC classes.

The core of the issue in my opinion is how worried about abuse are you? I've had similar issues with elves myself (even done extremly boring Excel sheets to figure how they would gain experience and such). In the end, it depends on your players. Role-Playing hinderences can balance out character advantages, but it has to be done correctly and your group has to be mature enough to handle it. (i.e. "No Fair, the elevs get everything, humans suck! I want to be an elf!" is the type of player or group that will not be advisable for this type of playing)

3E is balanced for combat and level, not story. If you can step around that here are some things I have tried in campaigns that weren't about the combat or all players being equal:

1) giving out points based on age, usually five points per 10 years. Even humans get this. These can be spent as skill ranks. I even sometimes have let a feat be bought for 7-10 points. (this was in a setting were humans could live longer, no elves... So I'd tone it down a bit with a starting age of 90).

2) Allow the person three common skills that they always work on. Like professions or even things like wilderness lore. Give a compentency bonus based by +1 for every 5 to 15 years of life spent with it as a common skill.

3) Give elves of a certain age category bonuses to a set of skills. Let the bonus increase with the age category.

4) I LOVE your first idea. Just monitor it and work with your group and I think it would work best of all.

Just my take on it. Hope this helps some. Personally I like the whole NPC classes dynamic as well. I think it does do a fair job of explaining age. The big problem I have with age is that normal people are suppose to (arguably) go up in NPC class levels as they age. So if you want to start the game (a 1st level game) as a 45 year-old human, that human is getting screwed. He has lived 45 years. He probably should have 2 to 3 (maybe even 4 to 5) levels in some NPC class, but instead, he is WORSE than that snot-nosed fighter kid whose is first level? Why, because this is a game starting at first level an he has 1 level in expert... Age means nothing in the current rules, and that is because the game uses a level mechanic not a skill-based one. Try an alter the level power balance and you've upset the whole system. Grrr... So my solution is to have players that can handle level variation and just say, (yes, he's 45, he is level 5, you guys are level 2). But I play a very different style of game too. Well that's it for my Rant now. Good luck in all your undertakings.

Edit: grammar. AHHH!!!

 

[willpax]

I think there is some merit in all the suggestions so far.

To clarify some parts of my agenda:

1. I actually love NPC classes, and have a souped-up expert (gets feats every four levels, mainly for skill focus at +3 or +2/+2), and a "higher powered" version called the scholar who gets fighter feat progression (with a list of non-combat feats to choose from) but no BAB; I also use a version of the aristocrat similar to that in the Wheel of Time RPG. This would not reflect the kind of experience where someone was dedicated to a certain pursuit for a long time.

2. Instead, this would represent some side area that the player worked in while focusing on class training--what that character did during down time and weekends, or a second job to pay the bills. As a real life example: I learned an awful lot about washing dishes and cooking and layout and repairing photocopiers while I was in graduate school. My graduate training would be analagous to my class, but I've picked up a little bit of this and that along the way (probably no more than a rank or two). To that extent, perhaps I should enforce a cross-class skill limit of 2 ranks per skill learned in this fashion (and still make the list of available skills tightly limited by background).

3. To further clarify: the class rank limits would still apply, so it would not be possible for a character to have a greater than legal number of skill ranks in something. And, given a list that would exclude most "adventuring" skills, I could foresee this being used mainly to broaden a skill set, not intensify it.

4. Some campaign details: I run a highly modified world, and the only nonhuman playable races are dwarves, halflings, and a made-up lizard race called the rogon who have an even shorter lifespan than the humans. The elf problem isnt really a problem for me (but I don't think it would be much of a problem if I had elves with the restrictions in rank and skill choice). I also play with the same people I played with in middle school (early 1980s), so I have a fairly experienced and mature bunch--we're more interested in storytelling that kicking posterior.

Thanks to all for the feedback.

 

[Chacal]

Another way to handle extra skills for age is to use the existing age rules. Your starting age is up to you. A 53 year old human suffers -3 to Str, Dex, and Con; but he gets +2 Int, Wis, and Cha. More Int means more skill points. Alot of wizards and druids are "old dudes" in long robes...

That's how we're doing it. So far two PC used this at creation time.
But it still only gives skill points, not more ranks (which might be a good things if you don"t want PC to meet some PrC prerequisites too early)
IMC, I give some points in language/craft/profession/knowledge (but not religion/arcana/the planes...)
as background skills.
Chacal

 

[Silver Griffon]

Another quick idea. What about creating background packages similar to the occupation packages used in d20 Modern? Tuerny had some good occupation packages for using d20 Modern for a low-magic fantasy world in this thread:
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36685
They might be a good starting point. I think other settings use regional background packages too. This gives a starting PC a little extra for a more detailed background.

As far as more skill points for age, I have to reiterate that there is a system for this already. More Int, Wis, and Cha means more skill points and better ability mods. You just have to suck up the penalties too.

I know it seems logical that an older character has more skills, but in game terms that's like giving a PC something for nothing. In game, skills improve through experience as represented by levels in PC or NPC classes, not years. A player shouldn't get any freebies just because of the number he wrote in the age box of his character sheet.

Unless you have some other system that penalizes a PC for age, there is no penalty for age that does not push you into the next age bracket. If there is no penalty, then there is no reason in your system not to make every one of your characters one or two years below the cutoff to the next bracket, therefore avoiding the physical ability penalties and still reaping great reward in the form of skill ranks. Remember, two skill ranks represents the entire training of an average 1st level fighter.

As far as long-lived races are concerned, its not so much that they are penalized by not getting more skill ranks. IMHO this actually reflects two things about humans: they master skills much more quickly, and their cultures are not as old and nowhere near as complex. Maybe elves spend decades learning what equates to societal etiquette because of the richness of their culture. Maybe they just have different priorities for their children. Perhaps playtime, social interaction, and admiration of the beauty of the world around them is more important than study and training. Perhaps real training in most areas is limited to adults. A twenty year old elf may be an adult to a human, but the attitude of elven society may be quite different. "You're only twenty, put down that book/sword/lockpick set/whatever and go play. Damn kids!" Or for dwarves, " I will not waste my time teaching my superior craftsmanship to a whelp who has not yet learned to appreciate the true value of anything!".
Of course this brings up the problem of elves raised by humans...
Maybe a new feat "Raised by Humans: Your staring age is that of a human rather than your own race. You get 4 bonus skill points at first level, but you suffer a -2 penalty on all Cha-based skill rolls when dealing with members of your own race."