Training to Level
- Thread starter loki44
- Start date
diaglo
Adventurer
Slife said:
you tell me.
how do cures work in your campaign?
in the campaign where you roll all hps and the 1hp guy is healed by the same spell that heals the 6hp guy of 1 hp of damage. my guess is that the god of the cleric works in a mysterious way or the cleric messed up his prayer when casting the spell and only a portion of the energy necessary to restore the guy to combat readines... oh wait... the guy with 6hps reduced to 1hp is still combat ready isn't he? whereas the guy with 1hp reduced to 0 or to as little as -4 in this case is not
painandgreed
First Post
diaglo said:
Cure is a cure is a cure. Damage healed is the same. The simple matter of the fact (IMC) that in a heroic fantasy setting the heroes (higher level characters) can take more damage than the low levels. The peasant will die if you shove a spear through their gut, where Crags the barbarian will cough, spit blood, and cleave through that attackers head and spear with his axe despite having taken the same wound. That seems to have the least issues in the hazy thing that is D&D combat.
ShinHakkaider said:
Just thought I'd repost this as it was pretty much what was going though my head right before I read it.
Slife
First Post
diaglo said:
The god heals the better fighters the least? Even the god of fighters? And the cleric consistantly messes up in the exact same manner? Seems a little convoluted.
And how do barbarians suddenly get more trained when they rage? And if they're badly hurt when they lose their extra training they drop dead.
Personally, I think of hp damage as the physical damage done to you, and hp as the ability to ignore the effects of wounds. A raging barbarian with 1 hp left at 20th level is going to be a lot more beaten up than level 1 mage with 1 hp left.
While raging barbarians gain temporary hp because they're so berzerk and hopped up on adreneline it doesn't matter to them if they're reduce to a bloody mess - for the moment. Once they stop raging they might keel over dead, since they were effectively living on borrowed time.
Low hp characters will go into shock or get KOed (reduced under 0 hp) more easily, while the higher hp guys can keep on swinging their axe even though they've been stabbed fifteen times.
In other words, what he ^ said.
Last edited:
kaomera
Explorer
loki44 said:
In AD&D games I ran (and played in) the training requirements where only rarely ignored. In 3.x I find it's the opposite. In your case, given the fact that the requirements where made clear up front, I don't think there's any problem with the DM sticking to his guns, in fact it's probably better that way. Overall, however, I think that the expectation with 3.x (for most players) is that training will not normally required in order to level up.
In AD&D training was a cool bit, for players as well as the DM. By the time you hit fifth or higher level it was hard to gain so much XP in one adventure that you hit the cap, and at least among the people I gamed with it was at least somewhat seen as "being greedy". Leveling in 3.x isn't really any less significant, in fact you gain more cool stuff each level as compared to AD&D, on the whole. But it does happen more often, what with not spending months and months trying to get the XP to go from 9th to 10th level, and tending to reach higher levels overall. Also, in AD&D it wasn't uncommon for weeks or months to pass between adventures, even if nothing much happened during that time. In 3.x there is something of an expectation that every day (or at least week) will be accounted for and something will be accomplished. I'm pretty sure that if I told my Saturday group that they where all going off on a vacation (paid for by the kingdom they just saved) for six months because they had dealt such a severe blow to the BBEG's plans that he needed time to regroup, they'd get upset. Back in 1980 or so, I can remember thinking that was a really cool way to not only keep the PCs occupied, but also to reward the players (who got to make up all sorts of cool details about their time "on safari" and even all got new nick-names) that I was going to gank it for my own game (pity I never actually got to use it...)
An interesting thought: Will we eventually get to the point that XP is awarded after each encounter and characters level up in the middle of an adventure? Myself, I don't think so. Strictly from a standpoint of convenience, leveling a character takes too much time. It's much better to wait and do it between sessions, or at least at the start and/or end of one.
Evilhalfling
Adventurer
Im tinkering with training rules - I have used them and ignored them in various campaigns.
While their is a lot to be said for the realism of having to find a trainer for a specific skill or feat, it creates a lot of game time spent on this very boring spotlight.
I had a system that seperated automatic benifits of leveling (hp, BAB, Saves, well used skills, mores uses of existing abilities and feats in a chain. From New Abilities that need training (new spell levels, new unconnected feats, new classes, new class abilities)
This was really much too complicated, I think a system that granted a postive level, which could be trained into a real level would work better. (although in some cases the positive level would be a better deal then an actuall level
I was thinking 2 days per level gained, required as downtime. This would mean that going from 1st to 10th would require 108 days training (+9 days adventuring) There could be some benifit to actually hireing a trainer cuts time by 1/2, with a 7 day reduction max value.
Anyway there should be some cap in the vaule of a teacher, so high level charaters can be mostly self-taught once they pass a certain point.
While their is a lot to be said for the realism of having to find a trainer for a specific skill or feat, it creates a lot of game time spent on this very boring spotlight.
I had a system that seperated automatic benifits of leveling (hp, BAB, Saves, well used skills, mores uses of existing abilities and feats in a chain. From New Abilities that need training (new spell levels, new unconnected feats, new classes, new class abilities)
This was really much too complicated, I think a system that granted a postive level, which could be trained into a real level would work better. (although in some cases the positive level would be a better deal then an actuall level
I was thinking 2 days per level gained, required as downtime. This would mean that going from 1st to 10th would require 108 days training (+9 days adventuring) There could be some benifit to actually hireing a trainer cuts time by 1/2, with a 7 day reduction max value.
Anyway there should be some cap in the vaule of a teacher, so high level charaters can be mostly self-taught once they pass a certain point.
I require training when a character learns any of the following:
1) a new base class*
2) a new prestige class
3) a new skill that they do not have
* A base class new class requires more time to learn in my campaigns than the suggestions under the training rules in the DMG. A player wanting their character to learn a new class can have their PC go out of the game for months or, depending upon the class, years to get thier training. As an alternative, the player can have the character be trained by another PC as they adventure If the player chooses the latter option, I treat the new class similar to a PrC and set skill and feat requirements which the character must learn to gain their first level.
1) a new base class*
2) a new prestige class
3) a new skill that they do not have
* A base class new class requires more time to learn in my campaigns than the suggestions under the training rules in the DMG. A player wanting their character to learn a new class can have their PC go out of the game for months or, depending upon the class, years to get thier training. As an alternative, the player can have the character be trained by another PC as they adventure If the player chooses the latter option, I treat the new class similar to a PrC and set skill and feat requirements which the character must learn to gain their first level.
Nomad4life
First Post
I tried “train-to-gain” a couple of times back in 2E. In pretty much every case, this stipulation got fudged to the point of non-existence, as it didn’t really add anything to the game while at the same time detracting a great deal from it.
DerHauptman
First Post
Use it as a DM and like it as a player - under the following conditions.
Training is only required to learn something new.
i.e. While I could self study a new computer program it would take me a long time to do so. However, with a quick class in the basics - even OJT with a mentor makes leaps and bounds over personal trial and error.
So, want to take a new class - fine as long as there is someone in the party with that class, you can learn it as you go with the understanding that the other person might be a mentor of sorts.
Once you have the basics (the 1st level) you can learn self paced.
Feats - someone in the group with the feat, you are golden if not seek and you shall receive. Any logical advances in the feat chain i.e the word improved, imply that it is just a simple honing of the original. However, the rest of the chain if different feats requires someone with the knowledge to teach you.
Class skills - requires someone of the class with the skill to teach you. Step increases in the same chain are self taught. i.e. extra sneak attack dice, rages, improved evasion etc.
Skills - BASIC skills require no trainer. (if it can be used untrained - it is something anyone can do alone even if its cross class) Trained only - requires a trainer.
My reasoning is the same as the guy who mentioned enforced down time. I hate playing in games where the group goes from level 1-20 inside about 1 year of game time.
[sblock=Real World Reasoning]
For instance I have been in the Army for 22 years...
I am a good damn soldier but it took me 22 years to get there -
I enlisted and went to basic - leaned the fundamentals then practiced them in training exercises. Honed them at other advanced schooling and even later in combat.
Without all three aspects book, practice (repetition of drills), and actual practical combat experience I'd never be where I am today.
I've been to the best schools out there SF, Ranger, OCS, SCUBA, HALO etc however that's just the basics.
I've been to combat too but I'll be honest with you one does not learn a whole lot in combat technique wise.
Real learning takes time and experience to master.
[/sblock]
It is ludicrous in games where in a year a 17 year old kid can go from rusty sword wielding farm hand to the wish casting, miracle arranging, uber-destructor, in the in the course of (in one of my games) as little as three months of game time - literally from kid to saving the world from demons in three months - lol! I mean in the 90 days of Red Hand of Doom we go from level 4 - 15 I think, that's veteran to fantastic in 90 days - not in my games.
I have enforced down time* - I mandate about 1 year of game time per level earned.
I.E. Say our intrepid teens go out on their 1st adventure and level up to 3. It may only be a week or two in game time but after that they will go on home, train, live their lives, have families make Friends etc. Then they go on he next adventure - they level to 4. Two more years go by - eventually they'll age loose physical abilities etc.
Actually, as they level (in keeping with the increased number of exp required) the 1 level per year thing stretches out as well.
1-5 (1 year per level)
5-10 (2 years per)
10-15 (3 years)
15- 20 (4 years)
So time in my game from level 1-20 can be as much as 50 years. A human can go through the full range of his categories middle, old and venerable.
Live an entire life in other words.
* Now how do I do that down time...little real time passes. Still a week between game sessions. However, the players account for their down time in journaling. What would your character do for a year - two or five? He might fall in love, have a kid, make a Friend, a contact or an enemy too. All of these are excellent hooks for me to use for the game.
At low levels, (1-5th 1 year per) he might train of course. He has few commitments outside adventuring so the time between them is shorter. In this example an enchanter, would learn his new spells, research and even teach some spells or classes in exchange for room and board at the Wizard Academy. He could do all or some of these.
Mid level, (5-10th 2 years per) say a rogue this time, might organize a small guild so the down time increases as the commitment outside the grand adventures lessens. he might take the role of chief information gatherer for his lord (or another character even). He might establish a house in town as a cover and engage in business to cover his income. He might just train and raise his children or, wench and drink himself to ruin. He might take a role as leader of a community sitting on boring meeting or gather information (spy) for the lord's army on a siege. (No real adventure just a mundane war.)
Upper level, (10-15th 3 years) this time a fighter, all my players start to get land grants and titles of their own in reward for their actions so they will have lots to write about. Running a manor takes time and effort, time slows down even more - he advances into middle age, his kids are grown. Now he has followers maybe and controls large tracts of forest or mines. Dealing with nations and church reps now he spends time making policy, making war or simply managing a famine in peace. They advance into middle age and refine their character (mental stats) but suffer some weakness and slowing physically.
Then finally the years slow them down, (15- 20th 4 years per) they adventure less and administer more. This time the cleric is the head of his church, making cannon and law he spends a lot of time in court ruling over disputes between kings and lords of stature. He might avert a disaster by calling for a miracle or raising a holy army for a crusade. He ages into old age now resting by the fire and sending his followers and henchmen out on his adventures for him. Perhaps his god will grant him a place by his side in death. Perhaps he will get tone final call to glory.....
How is this done - in e-mail, journals etc. I highlight thier actions and change the game with them, countries change hands rulers die they marry a child into another lords lands gaining prestige etc.
This is how I get my players to live a whole life with one character rather than one adventure path. I assume that the adventure itself is only part of what they do. A representation of a high point in their life. The experience is not as important as the time spent growing and developing the character. The adventures spice up the game, they are not the only thing about the game.
Anyway, dunno of that makes sense but its late just wanted to share since I've seen posts about time a lot and its a pet peeve of mine. I just can't abide the 17 year old 18th level King!
DH -
Training is only required to learn something new.
i.e. While I could self study a new computer program it would take me a long time to do so. However, with a quick class in the basics - even OJT with a mentor makes leaps and bounds over personal trial and error.
So, want to take a new class - fine as long as there is someone in the party with that class, you can learn it as you go with the understanding that the other person might be a mentor of sorts.
Once you have the basics (the 1st level) you can learn self paced.
Feats - someone in the group with the feat, you are golden if not seek and you shall receive. Any logical advances in the feat chain i.e the word improved, imply that it is just a simple honing of the original. However, the rest of the chain if different feats requires someone with the knowledge to teach you.
Class skills - requires someone of the class with the skill to teach you. Step increases in the same chain are self taught. i.e. extra sneak attack dice, rages, improved evasion etc.
Skills - BASIC skills require no trainer. (if it can be used untrained - it is something anyone can do alone even if its cross class) Trained only - requires a trainer.
My reasoning is the same as the guy who mentioned enforced down time. I hate playing in games where the group goes from level 1-20 inside about 1 year of game time.
[sblock=Real World Reasoning]
For instance I have been in the Army for 22 years...
I am a good damn soldier but it took me 22 years to get there -
I enlisted and went to basic - leaned the fundamentals then practiced them in training exercises. Honed them at other advanced schooling and even later in combat.
Without all three aspects book, practice (repetition of drills), and actual practical combat experience I'd never be where I am today.
I've been to the best schools out there SF, Ranger, OCS, SCUBA, HALO etc however that's just the basics.
I've been to combat too but I'll be honest with you one does not learn a whole lot in combat technique wise.
Real learning takes time and experience to master.
[/sblock]
It is ludicrous in games where in a year a 17 year old kid can go from rusty sword wielding farm hand to the wish casting, miracle arranging, uber-destructor, in the in the course of (in one of my games) as little as three months of game time - literally from kid to saving the world from demons in three months - lol! I mean in the 90 days of Red Hand of Doom we go from level 4 - 15 I think, that's veteran to fantastic in 90 days - not in my games.
I have enforced down time* - I mandate about 1 year of game time per level earned.
I.E. Say our intrepid teens go out on their 1st adventure and level up to 3. It may only be a week or two in game time but after that they will go on home, train, live their lives, have families make Friends etc. Then they go on he next adventure - they level to 4. Two more years go by - eventually they'll age loose physical abilities etc.
Actually, as they level (in keeping with the increased number of exp required) the 1 level per year thing stretches out as well.
1-5 (1 year per level)
5-10 (2 years per)
10-15 (3 years)
15- 20 (4 years)
So time in my game from level 1-20 can be as much as 50 years. A human can go through the full range of his categories middle, old and venerable.
Live an entire life in other words.
* Now how do I do that down time...little real time passes. Still a week between game sessions. However, the players account for their down time in journaling. What would your character do for a year - two or five? He might fall in love, have a kid, make a Friend, a contact or an enemy too. All of these are excellent hooks for me to use for the game.
At low levels, (1-5th 1 year per) he might train of course. He has few commitments outside adventuring so the time between them is shorter. In this example an enchanter, would learn his new spells, research and even teach some spells or classes in exchange for room and board at the Wizard Academy. He could do all or some of these.
Mid level, (5-10th 2 years per) say a rogue this time, might organize a small guild so the down time increases as the commitment outside the grand adventures lessens. he might take the role of chief information gatherer for his lord (or another character even). He might establish a house in town as a cover and engage in business to cover his income. He might just train and raise his children or, wench and drink himself to ruin. He might take a role as leader of a community sitting on boring meeting or gather information (spy) for the lord's army on a siege. (No real adventure just a mundane war.)
Upper level, (10-15th 3 years) this time a fighter, all my players start to get land grants and titles of their own in reward for their actions so they will have lots to write about. Running a manor takes time and effort, time slows down even more - he advances into middle age, his kids are grown. Now he has followers maybe and controls large tracts of forest or mines. Dealing with nations and church reps now he spends time making policy, making war or simply managing a famine in peace. They advance into middle age and refine their character (mental stats) but suffer some weakness and slowing physically.
Then finally the years slow them down, (15- 20th 4 years per) they adventure less and administer more. This time the cleric is the head of his church, making cannon and law he spends a lot of time in court ruling over disputes between kings and lords of stature. He might avert a disaster by calling for a miracle or raising a holy army for a crusade. He ages into old age now resting by the fire and sending his followers and henchmen out on his adventures for him. Perhaps his god will grant him a place by his side in death. Perhaps he will get tone final call to glory.....
How is this done - in e-mail, journals etc. I highlight thier actions and change the game with them, countries change hands rulers die they marry a child into another lords lands gaining prestige etc.
This is how I get my players to live a whole life with one character rather than one adventure path. I assume that the adventure itself is only part of what they do. A representation of a high point in their life. The experience is not as important as the time spent growing and developing the character. The adventures spice up the game, they are not the only thing about the game.
Anyway, dunno of that makes sense but its late just wanted to share since I've seen posts about time a lot and its a pet peeve of mine. I just can't abide the 17 year old 18th level King!
DH -
