Transition from Hack & Slash to RP: Help

[mmadsen]

I've tried this before, with my abortive CoCd20 campaign, but that quickly became hack & slash, too - which is part of the reason I aborted it.

How did your Call of Cthulhu game become hack & slash? Did you give them clear enemies they could defeat in straight-up combat?

I'm not sure if the unwanted hack & slash is the fault of my DMing style or my players' attitudes towards the game.

It's not an either-or proposition. Your players are going to react to what you give them in the way they know how. You play off of each other -- and neither side can read the other's mind.

Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone has some advice for me on how to make the jump from hack & slash to roleplaying - and also on how to help my players follow suit.

Your players know how to fight things, and they're generally rewarded for it -- in game, via treasure, and out of game, because it's fun. You need to give them fairly clear challenges with fun solutions. I'd start by giving them opponents they know they can't take in a straight-up fight but that they can beat if they think "out of the box" a bit. Maybe they need to lure the monster into a trap, maybe they need to get allies, but they know they can't waltz in, roll the dice, and play the same hack & slash game as always.

And lead by example with small bits of roleplaying. At the very least, have the Goblins trash-talk 'em until they do something stupid.

 

[Andrew D. Gable]

Re: Re: Transition from Hack & Slash to RP: Help

How did your Call of Cthulhu game become hack & slash? Did you give them clear enemies they could defeat in straight-up combat?

Maybe hack & slash is the wrong wording to use to describe the campaign. Basically, I had a campaign idea I wanted to go with, and in the first adventure they took things in directions I didn't really want to go. Stealing an Apache attack copter, frex.

I think that campaign idea is cursed - this is the third time I've tried running it, and I've failed miserably each time.

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Re: Re: Transition from Hack & Slash to RP: Help

Maybe hack & slash is the wrong wording to use to describe the campaign. Basically, I had a campaign idea I wanted to go with, and in the first adventure they took things in directions I didn't really want to go. Stealing an Apache attack copter, frex.

And you just let them?

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Re: Re: Transition from Hack & Slash to RP: Help

Maybe hack & slash is the wrong wording to use to describe the campaign. Basically, I had a campaign idea I wanted to go with, and in the first adventure they took things in directions I didn't really want to go. Stealing an Apache attack copter, frex.

What did you want them to do? Did they know what you wanted them to do? Would it have been fun to play out? "Your players know how to fight things, and they're generally rewarded for it -- in game, via treasure, and out of game, because it's fun. You need to give them fairly clear challenges with fun solutions."

 

[mmadsen]

Doesn't anyone out there have any concrete advice?

Anyway, here are some easy-to-digest ideas:

• Don't feed the party streams of "appropriate" combat encounters. Many potential encounters should be obviously too tough to tackle; fighting shouldn't always be rewarded.
• Don't leave much worth looting on random corpses. Again, fighting shouldn't always be rewarded.
• Even if individual PCs are powerful, have large groups of soldiers capable of taking them down if they break the King's Law or disturb the peace.
• Don't make everyone an enemy. Have potential allies more useful as allies than as corpses yielding treasure.
• Introduce roleplaying a bit at a time. Have enemies taunt the heroes, have women and children cheer them as they return victorious from their heroic quest, etc. Give your players time to learn how to get into character.

 

[kengar]

Doesn't anyone out there have any concrete advice?

Anyway, here are some easy-to-digest ideas:

• Don't feed the party streams of "appropriate" combat encounters. Many potential encounters should be obviously too tough to tackle; fighting shouldn't always be rewarded.
• Don't leave much worth looting on random corpses. Again, fighting shouldn't always be rewarded.
• Even if individual PCs are powerful, have large groups of soldiers capable of taking them down if they break the King's Law or disturb the peace.
• Don't make everyone an enemy. Have potential allies more useful as allies than as corpses yielding treasure.
• Introduce roleplaying a bit at a time. Have enemies taunt the heroes, have women and children cheer them as they return victorious from their heroic quest, etc. Give your players time to learn how to get into character.

These are great ideas and I second all of them. In regards to the last one (introducing the RP) I would mention that this is a good example of the players taking their cues from you, the DM. You may need to introduce the RP opportunities more often and RP the NPCs more yourself. It can be hard to get the group to change gears from hacking, but stick to your guns and they'll figure it out.

Town/City adventures are useful for this kind of thing. Raging battles in the streets are usually frowned upon.

One last suggestion, and I would caution that this is just an option. If your group continues to bull into fights and hack away, consider dropping the Massive Damage limit from 50 to say about 20 (make sure to tell them when you do this ). One critical hit from an orc and one failed save = dead. Even though it probably won't come up too often, the possibility of "Insta-Kill" will make a lot of players hesitate before letting their swords do all the talking.

 

[Bagpuss]

Hmmm I'm with the group of people having a hard time trying to understand how a CoC campaign could become hack & slash.

Or how they could steal an Apache helicopter, if it was that easy Al Qeade would have a few by now. I'm assuming one character was playing some sort of army officer with helicopter training and yet no concept of military discipline or regulations?

Still what would they want a attack helicopter for? Other than to get shot out of the sky by the US military, or squashed like a bug by a Mythos creature.

What prompted them to even consider stealing one? and how did they get away with it?

Sounds like you have some weird players and little control over them or co-operation with them.

 

[kengar]

Hmmm I'm with the group of people having a hard time trying to understand how a CoC campaign could become hack & slash.

Or how they could steal an Apache helicopter, if it was that easy Al Qeade would have a few by now.

I agree that kind of thing shouldn't happen much -if at all- in CoC. However, in Andrew's defense, sometimes it's tricky to make the shift to CoC from games like D&D.

I have found that -many times- players coming from a Heroic/Epic kind of power level can easily run amok when they come to CoC-style games if the GM isn't ready for it.

More years ago than I care to admit, I was running a "Top Secret" campaign where the agents were getting completely out of hand (rocket launchers in the streets, etc.). I finally reined them in by having the Director suspend them from active duty (took away their gadgets and Agency IDs) because they'd blown up a shopping mall. Later, the bad guys tried to take them out in a parking lot. The party returned fire and charged after the van the assassins were in, but someone called the cops. They (the party) ended up in a hostage situation inside a grocery store and a SWAT sniper took them out . I didn't like taking things to that level but they refused to tone down the violence and recognize they weren't in some dungeon killing orcs. They'd gotten several in game -and out of game- warnings, but it finally came down to where the characters suffered the consequences.

The next campaign, they toned it down and worked on solving the case; but I still gave them a couple kung fu fights and a shootout.

My point is, I wasn't prepared -as GM- to help the party make the transition to a campaign where combat was to be less common and RP was more important. As a result, 3 adventures were trashed by the party's mayhem. Lesson learned, and now I'm better prepared for it. Plus I try to explain stuff up front to my group before starting something new.

 

[Number47]

This might work, but it depends a lot on the group. It might simply piss them off. Try starting them as first level commoners. They can take whatever they want at second level and Commoner never counts against experience. This is a situation where you must roleplay. Commoners can't do squat otherwise.

 

[Theuderic]

Warhammer Fantasy roleplay is a fun game, Jurgen. I wish more people would give it a try. If run by a capable GM it is very RP heavy and yet has a violence to it ( due to the setting itself no doubt ). I like to role play and WFRP just seems to lend itself to heavy roleplaying.