D&D 4E Traps in 4e?

[Rechan]

Cave-ins. Quicksand. Unstable floors. Fast-flowing rivers. Etc.

I don't see how a rogue could handle any of those, or how they are Encounter Traps. What you describe is a Hazard.

They're also not appropriate for say, goblins. Goblins rigging a cave to cave-in every time intruders come in, or re-building the floors?

The issue is a trap that could be crudely constructed, effective, re-settable, bypassed by the humanoids who inhabit the place, and still be "an encounter".

 

[hong]

I don't see why a trap should be defined as "something the rogue can disarm". To my mind, a trap is basically anything that can damage the PCs, but isn't itself ambulatory/alive. It's passive, as opposed to monsters which move around and can react to signals.

Like I said above, I'd be very happy to get away from the rogue-as-bomb-disposal-guy paradigm. Part of this involves turning traps into more than just bombs.

 

[Rechan]

Because a trap needs to be "Defeated". Where's the challenge in a cave-in?

Two of the examples above is beatable with a 2nd or 3rd level spell: Levitate and/or Fly. Have the wizard fly and ferry people over by using a rope. Levitate yourself out of the quicksand, etc.

The hallway with the swinging blades, you have to STOP IT to get past, thus risking yourself in the process. But a fast-moving river by itself isn't a challenge, it's boring and just slows down your travel.

 

[hong]

Because a trap needs to be "Defeated". Where's the challenge in a cave-in?

As was illustrated above, because the cave-in might stop you getting to the archers who are peppering you with arrows. The point is that the passive trap/hazard is part of an overall encounter, instead of just being something met in isolation.

Two of the examples above is beatable with a 2nd or 3rd level spell: Levitate and/or Fly. Have the wizard fly and ferry people over by using a rope. Levitate yourself out of the quicksand, etc.

Since they seem to be toning down the level of wacky magic overall, this might or might not be a problem. And really, this is a problem with any purely passive hazard: there's always the possibility that the PCs just go around it. Past a certain point, the best bomb-disposal guy is the wizard with dim door, not the rogue.

 

[Rechan]

As was illustrated above, because the cave-in might stop you getting to the archers who are peppering you with arrows. The point is that the passive trap/hazard is part of an overall encounter, instead of just being something met in isolation.

If the cave caves in, then the archers can't get to you either. There's all those rocks in the way. If they're not in the way, then you can get to the archers.

Since they seem to be toning down the level of wacky magic overall, this might or might not be a problem.

The impression I got was the opposite. From what's been described about Siloing abilities, wizards will be able to use their utility magic AND their boom spells. So the way I see it, the wacky magic will be increased.

And really, this is a problem with any purely passive hazard: there's always the possibility that the PCs just go around it. Past a certain point, the best bomb-disposal guy is the wizard with dim door, not the rogue.

And thus the hazard is a little pointless then, isn't it? It's not an encounter, just an annoyance.

 

[hong]

If the cave caves in, then the archers can't get to you either. There's all those rocks in the way. If they're not in the way, then you can get to the archers.

Substitute collapsing floor, then. The same principle still applies. For cave-in, maybe it also drops a bunch of tunnelling monsters on your head.

Where do you get that impression? The Siloing abilities allow wizards to use their utility magic AND their boom-magic. So the way I see it, the wacky magic will be increased.

There is basic utility magic, and there is game-changing utility magic. This is not a difficult concept.

And thus the hazard is a little pointless then, isn't it? It's not an encounter, just an annoyance.

Exactly. Hence getting away from hazards as purely passive encounters.

 

[Rechan]

Substitute collapsing floor, then. The same principle still applies. For cave-in, maybe it also drops a bunch of tunnelling monsters on your head.

So how do the archers get past the collapsing floor? And then the cave-in is not or the trap or the encounter - the tunneling monsters are.

There is basic utility magic, and there is game-changing utility magic. This is not a difficult concept.

Levitate and fly are pretty basic utility magic in a D&D game.

Exactly. Hence getting away from hazards as purely passive encounters.

So we're right back where we started before you said "Cave-ins. Quicksand. Unstable floors. Fast-flowing rivers. Etc."

 

[hong]

So how do the archers get past the collapsing floor? And then the cave-in is not or the trap or the encounter - the tunneling monsters are.

Why do the archers need to get past the collapsing floor? The point is, if the group is stuck on one side of a hole in the ground, they can shoot without worrying that the group will get to them.

As for whether the cave-in counts as a "trap" or an "encounter", who cares? It's still a part of the overall encounter, being the method by which the tunnelling monsters are delivered to the party. And whatever you want to call it, rocks falling on your head tends to be hazardous.

Levitate and fly are pretty basic utility magic in a D&D game.

Levitate and fly are basic utility magic at a certain level in a 3E D&D game. This may or may not correspond to the same level in a 4E game. They also may or may not be castable with the same frequency at that level in 4E as in 3E.

So we're right back where we started before you said "Cave-ins. Quicksand. Unstable floors. Fast-flowing rivers. Etc."

You were asking what sort of traps could exist in a natural cave system. That's the answer.

 

[Rechan]

Why do the archers need to get past the collapsing floor?[/b]

Because the archers live there. Come on. Where else are you going to have traps but in something's hideout. The way you're making it sound, it's the equivalent of the medusa in one room of the dungeon and a beholder in the next and a hydra in the next with no sense as to the how or the why. "Here, let's put this trap here the inhabitants of the dungeon couldn't bypass but would have to in order to go about their business."

Here, let me spell it out:

I want encounter traps to make sense. Every environment, every dungeon should have internal consistency A pistoning ceiling with winding gears doesn't go in a cave with half a dozen goblins. And the goblins need to get past whatever Encounter Trap is going on.

As for whether the cave-in counts as a "trap" or an "encounter", who cares?

Because that's the whole point. Traps=encounters. That's the whole philosophy behind how they're being treated.

Levitate and fly are basic utility magic at a certain level in a 3E D&D game. This may or may not correspond to the same level in a 4E game. They also may or may not be castable with the same frequency at that level in 4E as in 3E.

If the wizard can't even accomplish a levitate or a fly, then they're not much of a wizard. It's fairly ludicrous to say "We don't know they'll have any utility magic that's actually usable".

You were asking what sort of traps could exist in a natural cave system. That's the answer.

No, not a "natural cave system", but a crude place. Cave is just an example of "Things in here can't build the place from the ground up to encorporate a room-sized trap". And you cancelled out your own examples.

 

[hong]

Because the archers live there. Come on. Where else are you going to have traps but in something's hideout.

So they repair the floor afterwards. And maybe they repaired it beforehand as well, after the last wandering monster came by. For heaven's sake, it's not like a hole in the ground disguised with some dirt, rocks and planks is a difficult thing to conceive of.

The way you're making it sound, it's the equivalent of the medusa in one room of the dungeon and a beholder in the next and a hydra in the next with no sense as to the how or the why.

What?

Here, let me spell it out:

I want encounter traps to make sense. Every environment, every dungeon needs to me. A pistoning ceiling with winding gears doesn't go in a cave with half a dozen goblins. The goblins need to get past whatever Encounter Trap is going on.

Nobody said anything about a pistoning ceiling. It can be as simple as a cavity in the ceiling filled with rocks and held up by some planks, which is activated when someone yanks a rope or trips a tripwire. And after the goblins get rid of whatever got crushed, they just load the rocks back into the cavity and reset the tripwire.

Or maybe the hole in the floor is just a known hazard in the cave, which the goblins were aware of and made a point of avoiding. It's not their problem if some blundering adventurers happen to break through the weak floor which the goblins knew about but didn't bother to tell anyone. Ditto quicksand, unexpectedly fast-flowing streams, etc.

Because that's the whole point. Traps=encounters. That's the whole philosophy behind how they're being treated.

A trap is a self-contained encounter in 3E. This may or may not continue to be the case in 4E. I am all for treating them as just components of an encounter, as said previously.

If the wizard can't even accomplish a levitate or a fly, then they're not much of a wizard. It's fairly ludicrous to say "We don't know they'll have any utility magic that's actually usable".

Up to 4th level in 3E, a wizard can't cast fly. Are they not a wizard? Up to 8th level, they can't cast teleport. Are they not a wizard?

Besides, fly and levitate affect one person only. So the wiz can fly to the other side of the hole in the ground (IME, it's a long time before a wiz has more than 1-2 fly spells available at a given time, whether prepped or as scrolls/whatnot). You tell me if this is a smart move.

No, not a "natural cave system", but a crude place. Cave is just an example of "Things in here can't build the place from the ground up to encorporate a room-sized trap". And you cancelled out your own examples.

No, I pointed out that traps/encounters that just sit there waiting for the party to come to them are, by their nature, of limited use past a certain level. This has exactly nothing to do with whether those traps/encounters are reasonable things to meet in the course of the adventure.