Traps with location/proximity triggers = Rogue killers?

[Pielorinho]

Not to open a can of worms, but I think the way to keep a rogue's job interesting is to vary the type of traps. Remember that rogues get multiple advantages in dealing with traps, including the ability to find them, the ability to disable them, and the ability to avoid damage from them (since a lot of traps require reflex saves for 1/2 damage). Some traps are easy to find but difficult to disable; some traps are difficult to find but easy to disable. Some traps are easy to find if you take some elementary measures of caution, but impossible to find otherwise. Some traps can be disabled by anyone who knows what to do.

In order to create this variety of traps, think about it from the trapmaker's perspective. If the trap is guarding something the trapmaker needs to access on a regular basis, there's going to be an easy and safe way to bypass the trap, and anyone who knows this technique can use it with either a nominal roll or no roll at all -- turn the key twice in the lock, murmer the word "Rutabega" before opening the door, walk all the way on the left side of the corridor, skip the third step on the stairway, etc. Sometimes such traps can be fiendishly difficult to find (a gas potion in a cabinet); sometimes such traps can be only difficult to find (a pressure-plate on a stairwell).

If the trap is a decoy trap, then the trapmaker doesn't ever need to go that way, and there needn't be a simple means of disabling them. A doorway that opens into the underside of a river, for example, is darn near impossible to disable: how does one possibly open this door without causing the corridor to be flooded? Such traps are best left undisturbed. Of course, a rogue will be the party member likeliest to recognize the door as a trap, even if she's not able to "disable" it in any meaningful sense.

By thinking like the trapmaker, you can create a variety of interesting and unusual traps that function in a variety of different ways, keeping the rogue's life interesting.

Of course, thinking like a trapmaker has another advantage: it gives the rogue something to hang her hat from. Rather than searching every 5' of dungeon, she just needs to search in places likely to contain a trap. With some groups, you can handle this freeform; with other groups, you may want to allow a check to give the rogue a hint that "this would be a great place for a trap." Checks such as craft: trapmaking or disable device (substituting Int for Dex as the related skill) or even Search (giving a synergy bonus for craft: trapmaking) would be appropriate. Just make sure that they sometimes make these checks in places that AREN'T trapped: you want the rogue to retain a little bit of paranoia .

Anubis, out of curiosity, where do you see most traps having location/proximity triggers? And how is it that you conclude location triggers can't be searched for? Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by this.

Daniel

 

[jgsugden]

I don't know where you folks get your information, but as far as I can tell, a rogue's search can detect a trap when he has an unobstructed view and he searches a location containing:

1.) A physical aspect of the trap (the pin trap in the door lock, the murder holes in the ceiling, the spring loaded step, etc ...), or

2.) A location where the trap would be set off (the first 5' beyond the door where the visiual trigger trap would detect him, anyplace in dungeon within listening range of a sound triggered trap (usually within 350' of a trap, though doors and other obstructions reduce this distance), etc ...

Anything that is a part of the the mechanism of the trap or is a part of the trigger of the trap is part of the trap. This is not clearly spelled out, but it is pretty logical.

The most important thing to rememeber about magical traps: The rogue is doing something beyond the realm of possibility when he finds a magical trap! Rogues have the ability to find traps that normal people could not possibly find. It doesn't need to make sense any more than bat guano turning into a fireball makes sense or a creature as large as a blue whale flying through the air with the agility of a large bird makes sense.

As for search times - a rogue that takes 20 on every square of a dungeon is going to slow his party down *a lot*. A rogue that searches key areas only (doors, chests, the first 5' in a room, etc ...) and takes 20 only when he is expecting a trap or has leisure time to spare is not going to waste much time at all.

 

[Pielorinho]

The most important thing to rememeber about magical traps: The rogue is doing something beyond the realm of possibility when he finds a magical trap! Rogues have the ability to find traps that normal people could not possibly find.

And this ability is not listed as being spell-like or supernatural, and there's no note that anti-magic fields block it, and anyone who gets training in a single level of rogue can learn to find these magical traps. Although the rules don't absolutely contradict you, I see no signs that they're using any special senses to find them.

We've always played that magical traps either involve very faint runes or else barely visible visual distortions, and it's these that a rogue is picking up on.

Again, trapfinding as a rogue (in our games, and consistent with the rules) simply involves a bit of specialized nonmagical training, in the same way that raging as a barbarian involves specialized nonmagical training. As such, rogues are still bound by the rules that all other nonmagical creatures are bound by: they don't get to break the universe's rules in the same way that a wizard casting fireball does. They can't see through opaque surfaces, they can't walk across a floor without touching it with their feet (or their shoes -- you know what I mean), etc.

Daniel

 

[jgsugden]

And this ability is not listed as being spell-like or supernatural, and there's no note that anti-magic fields block it, and anyone who gets training in a single level of rogue can learn to find these magical traps. Although the rules don't absolutely contradict you, I see no signs that they're using any special senses to find them.

Daniel

Is dragon flying magical? Is it possible under normal physics for a beast that size (and weight) to fly? Things do not need to be magical to have unrealistic treatment in D&D. We have plenty of extraordinary abilities (and abilities not even listed as extraordinary) that are impossible in the real world.

Rogues do something that is *not possible* for non-rogues to do. That makes it something special. It is a special ability.

I'm not saying they use a 'spider sense' to detect traps. I'm saying that they detect a trap when it would not be possible for anyone else to do so under any circumstances. That may not be magical, but it is not irrelevant either.

 

[Pielorinho]

Rogues do something that is *not possible* for non-rogues to do. That makes it something special. It is a special ability.

I guess that's true, but I'm just not sure how significant it is. As I stated before, anyone but anyone can learn to do it by taking a single level in rogue; in a system that limits abilities by classes, that just demonstrates that anyone who has taken the time to learn to recognize the subtler attributes of traps has taken a level of rogue. I don't see it as fantastic on the same level as a dragon's impossible flight; it's just the way the game mechanic handles learning to spot trap signs.

Daniel

 

[jgsugden]

I guess that's true, but I'm just not sure how significant it is. As I stated before, anyone but anyone can learn to do it by taking a single level in rogue; in a system that limits abilities by classes, that just demonstrates that anyone who has taken the time to learn to recognize the subtler attributes of traps has taken a level of rogue. I don't see it as fantastic on the same level as a dragon's impossible flight; it's just the way the game mechanic handles learning to spot trap signs.

Daniel

Yes, this is 'just' the game mechanic for handling traps, but it is a game mechanic that gives rogues a special ability that allows them to do something that is otherwise impossible. That seems like it is pretty special. We're interested in what the ability does, not why the ability is there.

A 20th level ranger with an intelligence of 32 can't spot an alarm spell no matter how hard he tries. A low level rogue with a good intelligence and a good roll can. That makes it pretty special.

The ability allows the rogue to detect the otherwise undetectable. The things that the rogue uses to detect a trap are beyond the comprehension of normal people (otherwise they would be able to use the same techniques). Perhaps it is the favor of the Gods. Perhaps it is picking up on things that only a specialized form of training would allow. Perhaps it is gummy bears. All we need to know is that the ability allows the impossible to be possible.

 

[Pielorinho]

The ability allows the rogue to detect the otherwise undetectable. The things that the rogue uses to detect a trap are beyond the comprehension of normal people (otherwise they would be able to use the same techniques).

I just get a very different impression of it. A car mechanic can do things because of her training that I absolutely cannot do, but that doesn't mean the things she does are beyond the comprehension of "normal" people -- it just means most people don't have the same training she has.

We're interested in what the ability does, not why the ability is there.

Difference in playstyle: I'm very interested in why the ability is there, because understanding it helps me adjudicate it in a rational manner that breaks no one's suspension of disbelief.

Daniel

 

[Scion]

hey firelance, put the rest up

As for the other discussion, that is how the other thread went.

Evasion is an incredible ability as well, but only certain people can do it. But you can be trained. 'Training' in d&d is a very odd thing, but one could say that the character had to already have the natural talent for it beforehand. So it isnt purely 'take a level of this', it is 'have a natural talent that allows you to do so, but you have to have someone point you at it, and then spend time doing it'. Very large distinction there.

So for finding traps in this special way, only a few people can do it. Much like only certain people can channel mystical energies or roll their tongue. But as players we get to say, usually, what our characters can do. Then we choose whether or not to do it. Someone who never took a level of rogue may have the innate ability to sense those traps, but never took the time to harness it, so it is wasted. Or someone could have a cha of 9 but takes a level of sorc.

Either way it is the same thing though. It 'is' a special ability, but it isnt given a label of what type it is. It just always works once you get the knack for it.

 

[Scion]

I'm very interested in why the ability is there, because understanding it helps me adjudicate it in a rational manner that breaks no one's suspension of disbelief.

Some people can roll their tongue, others cant

 

[jgsugden]

I just get a very different impression of it. A car mechanic can do things because of her training that I absolutely cannot do, but that doesn't mean the things she does are beyond the comprehension of "normal" people -- it just means most people don't have the same training she has.

It is more than training. It is a special ability. If it were just training, it would be purely a function of the search skill. Your problems with the ability arise from your perspective, not form the ability as written. The perspective that I have presented has no problems like the ones that trouble you.

Difference in playstyle: I'm very interested in why the ability is there, because understanding it helps me adjudicate it in a rational manner that breaks no one's suspension of disbelief.

Daniel

If you look too hard at any facet of D&D, the suspension of disbelief cracks. It is best to use a little vaseline on the lens to keep it hazy.

Regardless of that issue, you can explain the rogue ability to locate traps in any one of a thousand ways - divine guidance, picking up on things that nobody else could possibly notice (or explain), etc ...