Traps, XP and Nonsense...

[Al]

From the DMG:
'Overcoming the challenge of a trap involves encountering the trap, either by disarming it, avoiding it, or simply surviving the damage it deals.'

Now this strikes me as plain stupid. The CRs for traps are pretty easy compared with the damage they deal, and really, just surviving the damage and gaining a hefty chunk of XP seems a little stupid.

Take the Spear Trap as an example:
CR 2; +12 ranged (d8/x3). Search DC 20, Disable Device DC 20.

Now, if the rogue is searching for traps, and has maxed Search and +2 Int, he's got a 40% chance of finding it. If he does, he's got a 50% chance of disabling it (assumes MW Thieves' Tools) and one more level and he can simply take 10. He can usually keep trying until it's triggered (25%) or disabled (50%). So there is a 26.7% chance of just getting rid of the trap in the first place.

If triggered, it has to hit. Average AC (using DMG standard PCs) is 16, so it has an 85% chance of hitting. Once it hits, it does about 5 point of damage. So once the disabling chance and miss chance are factored in, it does around 3.5 pts of damage. What a joke.

Let compare it to, say, an Ogre (pretty standard CR2 beastie). The Ogre can do more than double the damage in a single attack (once chance to miss has been factored in), and normally gets to attack more than once before it keels over.

Neither is the spear trap a uniquely lame trap. The Poison Needle traps inflicts a pitiful amount of damage and is less likely to hit. The Flame Jet trap does more damage, but is unlikely to kill anyone (as even the wizard has a 50/50 chance of saving, hence only taking average 5 damage). The fact is that the CRs for traps are clear wrong; and the XP awarded as such are nonsense. I used to play that XP was only awarded if the group disabled the trap, but the way it is written traps are XP for old rope.

Your thoughts?

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Your probability figures, of course, assume that the character searches the right location in the first place. In my experience, a dilligent rogue will catch a fair number of traps through good guesswork about where to search, but the clear majority of them are tripped without anyone finding them ahead of time.

I don't know that that makes the spear trap the equal of an ogre, but it does make it considerably more dangerous.

 

[Pax]

Your probability figures, of course, assume that the character searches the right location in the first place. In my experience, a dilligent rogue will catch a fair number of traps through good guesswork about where to search, but the clear majority of them are tripped without anyone finding them ahead of time.

I don't know that that makes the spear trap the equal of an ogre, but it does make it considerably more dangerous.

And if the Rogue is rabidly anal about searchign EVERYWHERE -- that only leaves the party puttering about for hours while the rogue checks that 20-foot hallway for every conceivable trap; the party is likely to finally up and say "We'll be back in five days, Bob, if you need us before then we'll be at the tavern!" ... and even then, Bob will be lucky to be done before they get back.

 

[Al]

Granted, but even if the rogue doesn't search for traps (and a quick search of most likely trap-infested places: treasure chests etc. in not unlikely as it only takes 1 min.), the spear trap only does d8 damage, even if it hits. So that's hardly a CR 2 (considering an orc does d12+3 and is CR 1/2, and the CR 2 ogre does 2d6+7).

 

[Crothian]

The CR on the traps are a little to high. Personally, I don't give a lot of XP for traps unless the player really comes up with something to defeat it. I don't use many traps either, though. I think the sheer amount of traps in your average dungeon crawl borders on the rediculus.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

I belive the trap is more dangerous than an orc, by game logic, because:

It is well hidden, at low levels even a rouge is going to have only a 50/50 shot of seeing it.

It has better attack bonuses than the orc.

It is harder ti "kill". The orc has around 5-10 HP, where as the trap is part of the dungeon.

Both are only likely to get in one shot, unless it's a complex trap or a lucky orc.

A trap gaurds an area 24/7, with no chance of falling asleep on the job.

Both are capable of sounding an alarm. The orc is more mobile, but a trap could also set off an alarm, or just be obvious that someone tripped it.

The orc, or ogre more so, can be Bluffed, bribed, Intimidated, snuck past by stealth or illusion, ect.. The trap cannot be fooled.

Combining the two would be great. The orc leads the PC's into the trap, and then takes 9/10ths cover to lob heavy crossbow bolts. Do the PCs rush forward, or suffer the slings and arrows while looking for more traps and waiting for the orc's shouts to bring reinforcements? That would warrant a CR2, maybe even a 3.


I don't know if that spear trap alone rates a CR2, but it's at least a CR1. Frankly, I think some of the more powerful traps don't have a high enough CR. There was a falling ceiling trap in RttEE that was a party killer, and it was a far lower threat than they were. Sorry I can't find it at the moment. I also do not give XP for traps that are set off, only if discovered.

 

[Petrosian]

The trap will accomplish several things...

first it might damage the character,
second, it will probably slow down the party, as they will now be spending time searching for others.

Traps main threat and main combat effect is slowing down the party. In most cases a trap CAN be found and CAn be diosarmed with take 20s but these slow you down to a crawl.

if you are playing in a baldurs gate dungeaon where preprogrammed monsters all sit in their hidey holes until you attack them, speed is not an issue.

Otherwise it is.

As for this

"Let compare it to, say, an Ogre (pretty standard CR2 beastie). The Ogre can do more than double the damage in a single attack (once chance to miss has been factored in), and normally gets to attack more than once before it keels over."

Over 75% of my ogre adversaries never got a swing off. Ogres get spotted/heard usually well before the PCs are close and never, almost never, start combats within melee range. The ogre's lousy range gets him killed more often than not. Ogres are big, stupid, easy to hit (relatively), loud and easy to spot, and as such their massive (for CR 2) melee damage is more the punishment for mishandling the encounter than a reality for competent PCs.

On the other hand, in a game where silent, smart ogres wait for surprise around the corner, this too will be different.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I was thinking... As the rogue gets higher level, the rubbish traps are basically too easy to disarm or overcome, whether or not they just trigger them or do it properly. So the skill slowly leads to the point where there is no trap worth disarming (unless you make some really high CR ones up). Consider when you give out roleplaying experience to the party... would you discount the party bard convincing a mere level one guard that they are the captain's wife and need to speak to him urgently... or some such.

Pretty random point I know, but traps are a low level gimmick... handy for the DM (with a bit of poison etc...) and good for boosting XP. Whereas RPing, no matter how high you get, how good your skills are, you still get the XP for doing the same job a 1st level character could. For once maybe RPing is munchkin? LOL

 

[Taloras]

I think that for my rogue, traps are pretty useless. hes got a +24 to search, and a +20 to disable device (hes 10th level, but got some good magic items). just taking 10 searching, he can find almost any trap, and its almost a given that hes gonna disable it. As the rogue is almost always taking 10 searching for traps......we dont have much problem with them. i wouldnt mind if the DM gave us 1/2 xp or less for traps, seeing as most are a little too easy right now.