Treasure and leveling comparisons: AD&D1, B/ED&D, and D&D3 - updated 11-17-08 (Q1)

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Garnfellow

Explorer
Quasqueton said:
To use this rule (which in my personal experience, as a DM and a Player, was never used), the DM must add up all the hit dice of every enemy defeated in the adventure, divide by the number of creatures to get the average HD level. Then divide this number by the average level of the adventurers involved in the adventure. If you get a fraction less than 1, that is the fraction of xp the adventurers get; if the fraction is greater than 1, the adventurers get full normal xp. (It is my understanding that this rule only applies to monster xp, not to gp xp.) That’s a heck of a lot of calculations for a DM to figure, just to award xp at the end of a game session. I have never known a DM to do this, and it is not something that I can do for this data.

I did use this rule for a while, but eventually dropped it -- not because it was a pain in the butt (although it was), but because it was a pain in the butt AND with exponentially increasing XP thresholds, quite nearly meaningless. The adjustments almost always were not worth the effort.
 

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Gentlegamer

Adventurer
Are probabilities that characters are drained of levels by AD&D and BD&D undead factored in the experience point/level considerations?
 



Quasqueton

First Post
In all of the Moathouse and the Temple of Elemental Evil, there is not one level-draining undead. (This really surprised me when I realized it.) In the Caves of Chaos, there is 1 wight.

I would hope that everyone can understand that variables like “did anyone get level drained,” “did anyone die and have to start over,” “did a new player come in with a 1st-level character,” “did the DM play the monsters to their full potential,” etc. cannot be calculated in a data list like this. The fact that some people have asked about it says that not everyone understands this concept.

Maybe the party TPKed against Lareth at the end of the Moathouse adventure, and so they have to start with new 1st-level characters going into the Temple.

Maybe all but one PC died, and the one survivor got all the xp for himself.

Maybe the DM decided to run some side adventures between the Moathouse and the Temple, and so the characters actually went into the temple for the first time at 8th level.

Maybe the DM had the Players create new characters at 3rd level for play through the Moathouse.

Maybe the group had 10 PCs. Maybe the group had 2 PCs.

Maybe the group decided to play a different game half way through the adventure, and these characters never actually made it to the finish.

If anyone needs more incalculable variables, I can come up with more. If anyone thinks that the potential existence of such variables invalidates the yardstick this data is marking, then there’s nothing in this thread for you. I’m not saying this data is absolute; it is just the best estimate of a real outcome using actual data from the books themselves.

Quasqueton
 
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jcfiala

Explorer
I think this is a very interesting thread. I'm curious what data you calculated for 'Against the Giants'
 

T. Foster

First Post
Quasqueton said:
a lot of stuff

OK, so you're not factoring difficulties but you're also not including XP for magic items. Fair enough trade off, and I'll grant that the latter should at least counterbalance the former. I notice that you still didn't address the issue of wasted excess XP (i.e. if a character has 1,000 XP going into the adventure, needs 1,501 XP to attain 2nd level, and gains 10,000 XP from the adventure (which, going straight by the chart, would be enough to put him at 4th level) he only gets 501 XP (enough to hit 2nd level) and stops there, and the remaining 9,499 XP are lost/wasted) which does make a difference, but, y'know, whatever. Maybe no one you knew growing up used that rule either. It's your "study" so I guess you can apply whatever rules and assumptions you want.
 

Quasqueton

First Post
Noting the snide comments directed at me, I’ll still try to address the questions asked.

OK, so you're not factoring difficulties but you're also not including XP for magic items.
”Difficulties”? Something other than overcoming the monsters and such? What are you meaning?

I notice that you still didn't address the issue of wasted excess XP (i.e. if a character has 1,000 XP going into the adventure, needs 1,501 XP to attain 2nd level, and gains 10,000 XP from the adventure (which, going straight by the chart, would be enough to put him at 4th level) he only gets 501 XP (enough to hit 2nd level) and stops there, and the remaining 9,499 XP are lost/wasted) which does make a difference,
First, it is my understanding that the xp would only stop one point short of the *second* level, not at the absolute bottom of the immediate next level. So, in your example, the character would go up to 3,000 (1 short of the amount [3,001] needed for 3rd level). [It was a common D&D gag to talk about killing a rat back at the inn after the adventure so you could get that 1 more xp needed to level again.]

Secondly, note that other than the initial Moathouse adventure, the PCs don’t gain more than one character level per “dungeon level”. And even more, I doubt the PCs would clear a whole dungeon level in one [~4-hour] game session, so a windfall of xp all at one time is not likely, and is not seen in the data I’ve laid out.

Thirdly, if this was an issue, how would someone taking such data work around this? Should I be figuring and mapping how far the hypothetical party might get in a game session, and then figure up the xp for that game session?


I’ve not listed the data in any game session grouping. Going from 1st level to 8th level is not accomplished in 4 game sessions (the number of posts I’ve made with the data). The Moathouse, the Last Tower and Upper Ruins, Dungeon Level 1, Level 2, Level 3, and Level 4 (6 “dungeon levels”, hundreds of encounter areas) could well take 40 game sessions (over 10-12 months Real Time) to get through. The PCs would be getting xp in small or moderate sized chunks (gaining a level every 5-6 game sessions), not in one big 10,000 xp wave.

but, y'know, whatever. Maybe no one you knew growing up used that rule either. It's your "study" so I guess you can apply whatever rules and assumptions you want.
Actually, my serious groups all did use the rule of no more than one level at a time (not that we ever came close to more than one level at a time, anyway). I did meet kids who claimed to gain levels in leaps and bounds, but that didn’t happen in my games.

Now maybe I’m reading these posts incorrectly, but it seems to me that there is a strong undercurrent of disbelief about the data. Instead of asking questions and pointing things out to make sure I’m taking all reasonable things into account, it reads like some are trying to poke holes in the data and/or cast aspersions on my honesty. I’m wondering why.

Is it unbelievable that AD&D1 and D&D3 characters might gain levels at about the same rate, judging from the iconic/official adventure modules? What is the resistance to the data, here? I mean, some of the points being asked about here really seem like stretches. And the subtle hints that I’m making up stuff, ignoring rules, or making unreasonable assumptions seem a little catty. Not that I’m infallible, but I’m not biased on this subject either. (I expected slower AD&D1 advancement and faster D&D3 advancement, too.)

If you stick around for a while, you’ll see that the D&D3 group does eventually pull ahead in the level advancement rate, later. (It happens at around “name level.”) But if you want to work so hard to discredit the data in the beginning, I guess the later data will be dismissed as well.

Quasqueton
 

AdmundfortGeographer

Getting lost in fantasy maps
T. Foster said:
I notice that you still didn't address the issue of wasted excess XP (i.e. if a character has 1,000 XP going into the adventure, needs 1,501 XP to attain 2nd level, and gains 10,000 XP from the adventure (which, going straight by the chart, would be enough to put him at 4th level) he only gets 501 XP (enough to hit 2nd level) and stops there, and the remaining 9,499 XP are lost/wasted) which does make a difference, but, y'know, whatever. Maybe no one you knew growing up used that rule either.
Did you see many examples in the experiment above that this would have been applied?

And I don't think you are reading that rule right. Or else you are also saying that a character that has 1,000 XP going in and needs 1,501 to attain 2nd-level, but gains 602 XP instead only gains 501 XP and stops right there. Is that how you would have played that too? The way I remember it being played was that the charater would get all XP up to a single point below it would take to get 2 levels.
T. Foster said:
It's your "study" so I guess you can apply whatever rules and assumptions you want.
Yup, there are those "scare quotes" that are always helpful at subtle innuendo that one doesn't believe something is what it is. :\
 

Quasqueton

First Post
As another note, from the original designer himself:
E. Gary Gygax a.k.a. Col_Pladoh said:
The number of XPs given to rise a level was initially intuitive, later on based on the play of my campaign group. I think that 52 sessions to reach 10th level is about right if the time per session is about four hours. Longner sessions would reduce the number accordingly.
If getting from 1st to 8th level took 40 game sessions, as I suggested above, (1 level per 5-6 game sessions), they could reach level 10 in about 52 game sessions, just as EGG said was proper in his mind/intention/experience.

The “release notes” from WotC on the reformulating of the D&D xp chart and rate, said that they wanted a group to be able to reach level 20 within 2 years. That would mean the group could reach level 10 in 1 year (52 weekly game sessions). (I’ve heard “2 years” and “18 months”, but I can’t find the information on the WotC Web site right now.)

Comparing these two opinions/intentions, we see that leveling up to level 10 would probably be at about the same rate in both editions. It’s *after* level 10 that we’d see an advancement rate difference.

Also note:
E. Gary Gygax said:
If play was intensive dungeon crawling, the 52 play sessions might take up only a few weeks of game time, with several adventure sessions being the continuation of a single day of delving.
Quasqueton
 

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