Treasure and leveling comparisons: AD&D1, B/ED&D, and D&D3 - updated 11-17-08 (Q1)

[Mark CMG]

I’ve read this assertion before, but I haven’t seen this in the adventure modules I’ve gone through. The vast majority of treasure is not hidden. And that treasure that is hidden, is not much, and only rarely “ridiculously” or “devilishly” (as someone else said) well hidden.

The Moathouse's "hidden" treasure:

1- in the belly of a giant frog = a 100gp gem

2- "the brigands have buried a chest. . . Three turns of digging" = 265gp value, +1 arrows (x4)

3- "in the litter of its nesting" = 850gp value

4- In a lone wall cresset, a "nondescript torch stub is a silver baton" = 30gp value

5- "[The giant lizard] has previously swallowed a shield +1, easily found if appropriate actions are taken after the battle." = +1 shield

6- "hidden behind a loose stone" = 500gp value

7- "intermixed with the old carpeting and rags of [the ogre's] bedding" = elven cloak

8- in a pool of water, under a skull = a pin worth a total of 2,000gp

9- in the "mess" of a ghoul nest = 40gp value, 1 potion, 1 scroll

10- "hidden in a cabinet" in the BBEG's chamber = 15,000gp piece of jewelry [Is this actually "hidden", in the context of this discussion? Just in a cabinet.]

Total of 3,785 gp value (out of 30,938gp) not immediately or obviously discoverable. Plus a 15,000gp piece of jewelry "hidden in a cabinet" in the BBEG's chamber, which "If seriously threatened, Lareth will offer all his non-magical treasures---jewelry, coins, and all else---as ransom for his life."

Quasqueton

Most of that treasure should be found by careful searching.

 

[JustinA]

I think the biggest revelation I'm coming away from this thread with is that my personal experience (that advancement in previous editions was considerably slower) was apparently based entirely on the fact that my groups ignored the XP for GP rules.

 

[Quasqueton]

What is the "appropriate action" after a battle to discover a shield in the belly of a giant lizard? ;-)

There are at least three adventures I can think of off the top of my head that had treasure inside a monster's belly -- these two instances in The Village of Hommlet, the ring of regeneration inside the dinosaur in The Isle of Dread, and the gems inside the storoper in Aerie of the Slavelords. What prompted module designers to place treasure in such a place? And how many Players thought to cut open the monsters to find the treasure? Was gutting monster corpses a regular action for many groups? And did monsters ever have non-valuable/magic junk in their bellies?

Quasqueton

 

[Slife]

What is the "appropriate action" after a battle to discover a shield in the belly of a giant lizard? ;-)

There are at least three adventures I can think of off the top of my head that had treasure inside a monster's belly -- these two instances in The Village of Hommlet, the ring of regeneration inside the dinosaur in The Isle of Dread, and the gems inside the storoper in Aerie of the Slavelords. What prompted module designers to place treasure in such a place? And how many Players thought to cut open the monsters to find the treasure? Was gutting monster corpses a regular action for many groups? And did monsters ever have non-valuable/magic junk in their bellies?

Quasqueton

Where do you think CRPGs got the idea? Wolves don't have anywhere else to keep hundreds of GP.

 

[molonel]

What is the "appropriate action" after a battle to discover a shield in the belly of a giant lizard? ;-)

There are at least three adventures I can think of off the top of my head that had treasure inside a monster's belly -- these two instances in The Village of Hommlet, the ring of regeneration inside the dinosaur in The Isle of Dread, and the gems inside the storoper in Aerie of the Slavelords. What prompted module designers to place treasure in such a place? And how many Players thought to cut open the monsters to find the treasure? Was gutting monster corpses a regular action for many groups? And did monsters ever have non-valuable/magic junk in their bellies?

Quasqueton

I can remember gutting stuff for treasure, yeah. Especially in a wilderness adventure if the DM tracked rations.

 

[Mark CMG]

We gutted anything without a humanoid face.

 

[T. Foster]

Giant frogs, giant lizards, and dinosaurs are all specifically capable of swallowing characters whole, so it's not unreasonable for players to surmise they might have swallowed something interesting in the past that might still be there if they gut it (after all, if it swallows one of the characters whole, all of his treasure will be in there...).

As for the gems in the roper's "gizzard," that's a standard feature of the monster that makes no sense in-milieu or out and is presumably only there to serve as an "easter egg" for players who've read the MM and have good memories. The storoper is just following that pattern.

In neither case do I think the game is either explicitly or even implicitly encouraging players to gut and dissect every monster they defeat.

 

[jdrakeh]

I think the biggest revelation I'm coming away from this thread with is that my personal experience (that advancement in previous editions was considerably slower) was apparently based entirely on the fact that my groups ignored the XP for GP rules.

I think that has a lot to do with it. I know that this is true for me and my old 1e group. If we'd been giving away XP for GP (and GP value of treausure) we would have rocketed through the levels. As it was, we actually preferred the slower progression that ignoring the XP for gold rules provided. Treasure should, IMO, be its own reward.

 

[JustinA]

I think that has a lot to do with it. I know that this is true for me and my old 1e group. If we'd been giving away XP for GP (and GP value of treausure) we would have rocketed through the levels. As it was, we actually preferred the slower progression that ignoring the XP for gold rules provided. Treasure should, IMO, be its own reward.

That was pretty much the thinking in all the groups I played in. (And we're talking about 9-12 different groups stretched over a wide swath of geography.)

I've been slicing 3rd Edition rewards in half for several campaigns now. It's working well. It takes longer for everyone to get to 20th level, but players get 3-6 sessions at each level to actually learn what they can do and get comfortable before powering up again. And it gives us 15-20 sessions within a given range of power, so that larger and more epic adventures don't end up stylistically disjointed (where at the beginning of it you're struggling with rats and a couple days later you're slaying dragons).

 

[Quasqueton]

AD&D1 - Descent to the Depths of the Earth - Shrine of the Kuo Toa

This post continues the original "adventure path" (The Temple of Elemental Evil, Against the Giants, Descent to the Depths of the Earth). Clearing out the Kuo Toa Shrine.

AD&D1 party begins at: (738,514 xp each)
Fighter 10
Paladin 10
Cleric 11
Magic-User 11
Illusionist 12
Thief 13


Total gp value: 417,795 gp

Total xp value:
AD&D1: 518,793 xp (not including the xp value of using or selling magic items, nor the 10% bonus for ability scores over 15)

Total magic treasure:
boots of speed
ring of protection +3 (6 charges for saving throws, then useless)
trident of submission
ring of invisibility
manual of gainful exercise
tome of understanding
grim grimoire
helm of underwater vision
gauntlets of swimming and climbing
cleric scroll: lower water, true seeing, restoration
potions: water breathing (x12)
short sword +2 (drow)
dagger +2 (drow)


AD&D1 party finishes at: (824,980 xp each)
Fighter 11
Paladin 10
Cleric 11
Magic-User 12
Illusionist 12
Thief 13

The party's next steps take them into the drow kingdom. Vault of the Drow is for characters levels 10-14, and that's pretty much right where they are.

Quasqueton