D&D 5E Treasure Rolls & "a typical campaign"

[Jester David]

Sorry I'm playing Dungeons & Dragons, not Income & Expenses.

Sorry for the snark, but unless I can buy something truly worthwhile and helpful, I simply can't be arsed to bother with gold.

Just as I have stopped tracking the number of torches used, experience points, or (non-magical) ammunition a long time ago; I don't track small change. And buying a feast in a tavern quickly becomes small change in D&D. (Heck, buying the tavern quickly becomes small change in D&D! But that's not the point...)

Kinda.
In 3e and 4e buying the tavern quickly became laughably easy, as the PCs were effectively multimillionaires in purchasing power at level 5. But they'd never buy the tavern because they needed all their gold for magic items, so they were effectively paupers as any deviation from expected wealth hurt their power level.

But, really, they could retire to an estate in the tropics and be waited on by slaves for all their days after level 8. Adventuring after that level was largely suicidal. They already had more gold than they could spend in a lifetime and were continually risking their life.

You get far less gold in 5e, but it's actually yours. It's not gear in disguise. You can do things like buying the tavern. Of course, when you only get 500 gp in a treasure hoard at level 10, spending 300 gp/month to live like an aristocrat is pricey. And setting up the feast might really cut into your savings.

 

[Zaran]

I feel they went low for default cause its easier for individual groups to upscale. A baseline as it were.

My group? We are definately exceeding the curve...but not in a mad crazy way. Party of five, there are 3 +1 style weapons and the PCs are 5 to 7th level.

Both Hoard of the Dairy Queen and Lost Mimes of Flanders have quite a lot of magical items. Granted You don't see most of them in HotDQ until the dragon hoard at the end. But in LMoP my group found a Magical Sword and a Staff of defense and we barely made 3rd level.

 

[Kikuras]

You are sort of asking to have your cake and eat it too, though. So characters are vagabonds who bounce from inn to inn, looking for caves full of loot? Why then would we assume the adventurer would be able to easily spend that loot? Who is going to take the ancient coinage? Who is going to buy the fist sized emeralds off them? Who is going to convert the ancient golden idol into liquid cash? If the PCs exist outside the regular world's economy, then they have nowhere to spend their loot unless they find collectors and other wealthy folks willing to trade something the PCs value for it. If adventuring is a part of the economy, then all the things I mentioned -- fees and taxes and expenses and lives -- are part of it too because there would be an "adventuring class" of people. You don't tend to see people of one economic class shopping in lower economic zones. In fact, most people with a little bit of economic leeway shop "up" and try and access a couple status symbols of the next higher class.

No one said that adventuring (as far as groups of 4+ people heading out to kill and loot) was the basis for the general D&D economy, in fact that's rather a silly notion. The reason (in theory) ancient idols, art work, and gems can be so easily liquidated is because there's a demand for such rare items. The assumption here is that the players are filling an economic niche that is not otherwise being met, hence their monetary boon. But because adventuring is not at all a common source of income, there wouldn't necessarily be fees, taxes, or otherwise. It might be fun to wrestle with the local lord because he demands taxes, but I would never assume that to be standard.

Again, it sort of comes down to whether people want to think of their characters as actual living people. Imagine what it would be like to spend your entire life hiking through the woods, eating beef jerky and dry bread, sleeping on the ground with just a bedroll and a blanket to warm you. And those are when you are *not* in a dank, monster filled hell hole, rummaging through offal and viscera in search of a few pennies. Every once in a while, you spend one night at an inn, but make sure you buy the cheapest meal and rent the cheapest room. It would not be fun.

So you think everyone should have the same life goals, and so that's where the money goes? And who made you the king of what's fun for my character? Doing those exact things may be exactly what my barbarian gets off on. In fact I know a couple who would love to experience that lifestyle (more or less), travel the world, eat bugs, live in squalor, have no roots... they annoy me.

Edit: Also, this game is not designed to function as an economic simulator.

 

[Reynard]

The reason (in theory) ancient idols, art work, and gems can be so easily liquidated is because there's a demand for such rare items.

Someone has to have the liquid assets to make that exchange, though, and if the PCs operate outside the regular economy, it sure isn't anyone who lives in a village near a dungeon. So either the PCs will have to seek out a buyer, or find a broker. once you add the broker, now you are building a specialized sub economy built around the looting of ancient tombs and dragon lairs. And once you have done that, you have the basis for taxes and fees that make sense.

For example, let's say the PCs find an ancient tablet worth 10000gp -- far more than the coffers of the local lord with his village of serfs. Otherwise, though, the PCs are down to their last few local coins. At the inn, they meet a treasure broker, who works for aristocrats, wizards and maybe even other treasure hoarding monsters. He offers to find a buyer for the PCs, but it will cost 10% of the value as a fee, and take a couple months to work out. If the PCs can't wait, he is willing to buy it for half value in the hope that he can find a buyer. Now, at the same time, that local lord, by virtue of owning the land, is a little off put by vagabonds making 10K gp deals in his land without getting his leave or paying tribute. The lord demands a tax on the treasure found, and he isn't going to take old rocks with ancient scribbles on them. Remember, he is a mundane ruler. He needs cash to pay his bodyguard. The broker, wishing to continue to operate in the area, is motivated to obey the law and not make any enemies for the PCs' sake. Of course, the PCs could refuse to pay their tax, which could lead to a fight with the lord's soldiers -- a fight the PCs are likely to win in the short term but ultimately leads to their status as wanted criminals. And on top of it all, local bandits would know that those adventurers that do survive the dungeon often come out not only laden with treasure but at the end of their resources and are known to shakedown or even attack said adventurers.

Adding this kind of layer of complexity to the usual, "You find 1000 gold," paradigm adds a lot to the game IMO -- certainly far more than the magic item economy of the 3.x era.

 

[Kikuras]

Someone has to have the liquid assets to make that exchange, though, and if the PCs operate outside the regular economy, it sure isn't anyone who lives in a village near a dungeon. So either the PCs will have to seek out a buyer, or find a broker. once you add the broker, now you are building a specialized sub economy built around the looting of ancient tombs and dragon lairs. And once you have done that, you have the basis for taxes and fees that make sense.

For example, let's say the PCs find an ancient tablet worth 10000gp -- far more than the coffers of the local lord with his village of serfs. Otherwise, though, the PCs are down to their last few local coins. At the inn, they meet a treasure broker, who works for aristocrats, wizards and maybe even other treasure hoarding monsters. He offers to find a buyer for the PCs, but it will cost 10% of the value as a fee, and take a couple months to work out. If the PCs can't wait, he is willing to buy it for half value in the hope that he can find a buyer. Now, at the same time, that local lord, by virtue of owning the land, is a little off put by vagabonds making 10K gp deals in his land without getting his leave or paying tribute. The lord demands a tax on the treasure found, and he isn't going to take old rocks with ancient scribbles on them. Remember, he is a mundane ruler. He needs cash to pay his bodyguard. The broker, wishing to continue to operate in the area, is motivated to obey the law and not make any enemies for the PCs' sake. Of course, the PCs could refuse to pay their tax, which could lead to a fight with the lord's soldiers -- a fight the PCs are likely to win in the short term but ultimately leads to their status as wanted criminals. And on top of it all, local bandits would know that those adventurers that do survive the dungeon often come out not only laden with treasure but at the end of their resources and are known to shakedown or even attack said adventurers.

Adding this kind of layer of complexity to the usual, "You find 1000 gold," paradigm adds a lot to the game IMO -- certainly far more than the magic item economy of the 3.x era.

I may not agree on the assumed establishment of sub-economies, but I see your point. Personally I wouldn't mind an optional, more complex system. As it is, however, most people I've played with don't really care about details, some of which might be important to worry about even in a simplified system. And some adventures, or campaigns, may not really support the application of mundanity (made-up word) to the lives of the characters, so it's best to just keep it simple.

 

[CapnZapp]

Of course, when you only get 500 gp in a treasure hoard at level 10, spending 300 gp/month to live like an aristocrat is pricey. And setting up the feast might really cut into your savings.

I don't know what campaign you're playing in, but if you were to use the DMG treasure tables, I would expect a level 10 character to have accrued a few tens of thousands of gold pieces*.

Of course, if you're playing official adventures, it seems you would be even wealthier than that.

*) Source: http://blogofholding.com/?p=6760

You get far less gold in 5e, but it's actually yours. It's not gear in disguise. You can do things like buying the tavern.

Problem is, why would you?

Again, I'm assuming a group who plays one published adventure after the other and doesn't care much for downtime. I find this to be a very reasonable assumption - in fact, I suspect, lots and lots of D&D gamers play the game this way; as opposed to sandboxy emergent play.

In 3e, we had gear as a worthwhile gold sink. So far, I have not found anything of similar utility that motivates me to actually care for the gold pieces I find. In short, if the only thing I can purchase for my wealth is a tavern and the finery of an aristocrat, I don't want it.

Why? Because my character is off to the next adventure where none of that matters in the slightest**.

My point? That WotC so far have not catered for my style of D&D play. 5th edition simply isn't compatible with 3e until something tangible can be bought for all the gold PC's are showered in.

Best,
Zapp

**) Not entirely true: I appreciate a bit of backstory and charactization as much as anyone. But I certainly don't want to have to account for it! (In other words, money needed only to keep up appearances with no significant game impact when we're actually playing the game is money I don't want to keep track of)

 

[CapnZapp]

Someone has to have the liquid assets to make that exchange, though, and if the PCs operate outside the regular economy, it sure isn't anyone who lives in a village near a dungeon. So either the PCs will have to seek out a buyer, or find a broker. once you add the broker, now you are building a specialized sub economy built around the looting of ancient tombs and dragon lairs. And once you have done that, you have the basis for taxes and fees that make sense.

<snip>

Adding this kind of layer of complexity to the usual, "You find 1000 gold," paradigm adds a lot to the game IMO -- certainly far more than the magic item economy of the 3.x era.

I don't want any of it.

You might not like the magic item economy of 3e, but if it kept taxes and fees out of my game (not to speak of entire adventures consisting only of selling or brokering stuff), then I'd run for the Magic Shoppe without looking back!

 

[Jester David]

I don't know what campaign you're playing in, but if you were to use the DMG treasure tables, I would expect a level 10 character to have accrued a few tens of thousands of gold pieces*.

Of course, if you're playing official adventures, it seems you would be even wealthier than that.

*) Source: http://blogofholding.com/?p=6760

I said 500 gp in a treasure hoard. Yes, by level 10 you *should* have more than 500 gold, but a single
If you find one treasure hoard every month-and-a-half for your adventuring career, while living an aristocratic lifestyle, you'll be broke if you stop adventuring.

Problem is, why would you?

Again, I'm assuming a group who plays one published adventure after the other and doesn't care much for downtime. I find this to be a very reasonable assumption - in fact, I suspect, lots and lots of D&D gamers play the game this way; as opposed to sandboxy emergent play.

I would actually assume that the number of groups that just go from published campaign to published campaign is actually rarer. Less than average at least.
Some might go 100% homebrew, some might do a mix and incorporate prepublished into a homebrew, and some might start published and go off the rails in their own direction.

In 3e, we had gear as a worthwhile gold sink. So far, I have not found anything of similar utility that motivates me to actually care for the gold pieces I find. In short, if the only thing I can purchase for my wealth is a tavern and the finery of an aristocrat, I don't want it.

That's easy enough to fix then. Remove gold from the game. Done.

It's pretty much the same thing. Either way the characters don't really have spare gold to spend. Only if you're giving out gold that you're required to spend on magic items, that game just has an extra step of complexity. There's more math as you need to track gold, purchases of magic items, the downtime required to craft, etc. And you need to regularly go to town to sell and craft, essentially stopping adventuring (and playing) for the subgame of "What slot do I have free? Who has the Craft Wonderous feat?" All to just maintain the numbers. It's much easier to just reduce gold and make the numerical bonuses inherent or, like 5e did, and just reduce the numerical bonuses.
And heaven forbid you lose a character and have to bring in a new one, and spend 200,000 gp on gear.

This has really been irking me of late. I just finished Rise of the Runelords and the final couple chapters were awkward as there was limited time to sell and craft. There's the big problem of the group going "hey, let's stop saving the world for a 90 days so the crafter can increase all of our magical items from +3 to +4."
And I'm currently running Skull & Shackles, which is equally weird going by the base rules as piracy is crazy inefficient for gathering wealth, as few ships can hold enough plunder to maintain the expected wealth when characters should be getting 2,000 gp each fight. And, really, why continue to be a pirate when that 2,000 gp is enough to live on for a year. A level 6 PC could just take their 16,000 gp and relax in the finest inn in town for the better part of a decade. A level 10 PC has enough wealth to never work another day in their life.

My point? That WotC so far have not catered for my style of D&D play. 5th edition simply isn't compatible with 3e until something tangible can be bought for all the gold PC's are showered in.

Another easy fix.
Remove proficiency bonus increases, give out more gold, and require your players to pay for magic items to increase their numbers. Everyone gets +1 weapons at level 5, +2 at level 9, etc.


Personally, I like the absence of a mandated gold sink because it opens up choice to the game. When the adventurers find 500gp in that treasure hoard that's 500gp they can spend on whatever. The decision wasn't made for them.
They can choose to buy that tavern, or the pirate ship, or the mansion, or the keep. The party's wizard is not handicapping themselves by spending 5,000 on a tower rather than a pearl of power. And the DM isn't wrecking the game balance by, say, giving out a castle or ship, because the player's won't just turn around and sell it for more gear increasing their Wealth By Level beyond the expected levels. And the DM can choose to have magic items available in large towns.
And there's no crazy spike in treasure as you need to give out more and more wealth. Where high level mooks are all dressed in magical gear worth more than an entire town.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sorry Jester, but when you call removing gold from D&D as "easy enough" I lose all interest in keeping up this discussion with you. To me, you come across as awfully dismissive when you handwave away my concerns as yet another "easy fix".

So I need to ask you: why are you responding to my posts in the first place? You don't seem interested in actually accepting the very valid concern that any gamer going from previous editions of D&D to fifth edition will find large holes in the rules where they were used to have excellent support.

To me, the apparent worthlessness of gold in the game is a major issue, and one that WotC haven't acknowledged yet.

Feel free to not respond unless you want to give it a shot of actually helping me out.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I don't want any of it.

You might not like the magic item economy of 3e, but if it kept taxes and fees out of my game (not to speak of entire adventures consisting only of selling or brokering stuff), then I'd run for the Magic Shoppe without looking back!

If you just have to have magic items for sale, then you can do so if your DM allows. I'd recommend making the prices at least double the DMG base prices (that shop has high costs and high risks, so they need to still be able to turn a profit after preventing theft). Increasing the prices is doubly effective because then it becomes a better gold-sink.

If your DM doesn't allow magic shops, you could always turn your dislike of gold into an RP opportunity by having your character take a vow of poverty.

Personally, I love how 5e handles gold. The players have been donating significant amounts of their gold to a goblin clan they befriended. It's great to see their faces light up when they visit goblin town and I describe how the goblins' homes are changing from broken down shacks into places you'd actually want to live, and how the goblin militia is now well armed and confident.