D&D 5E (2014) Treasure Rolls & "a typical campaign"

I may not agree on the assumed establishment of sub-economies, but I see your point. Personally I wouldn't mind an optional, more complex system. As it is, however, most people I've played with don't really care about details, some of which might be important to worry about even in a simplified system. And some adventures, or campaigns, may not really support the application of mundanity (made-up word) to the lives of the characters, so it's best to just keep it simple.

Well, sure, like anything else it is a matter of preference and how the table wants to deal with such things. On the upside, the way the system is built with wealth largely removed from power, the idea of heroic character questing to save the world and NOT having to loot every corpse along the way is more viable than it was in 3.x. Nothing says Lawful Good like rifling through the pockets of dead orcs!
 

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In 3e, we had gear as a worthwhile gold sink. So far, I have not found anything of similar utility that motivates me to actually care for the gold pieces I find. In short, if the only thing I can purchase for my wealth is a tavern and the finery of an aristocrat, I don't want it.

Why? Because my character is off to the next adventure where none of that matters in the slightest**.

My point? That WotC so far have not catered for my style of D&D play. 5th edition simply isn't compatible with 3e until something tangible can be bought for all the gold PC's are showered in.

Best,
Zapp

I don't mean this in a dismissive way, but it seems to me you would be better off playing Pathfinder than 5E as it seems to suit your preferences and needs better. There's nothing wrong with that: during the 4E years I had to come to accept that official D&D was not for me either, until it became something I preferred again.
 

Sorry Jester, but when you call removing gold from D&D as "easy enough" I lose all interest in keeping up this discussion with you. To me, you come across as awfully dismissive when you handwave away my concerns as yet another "easy fix".

I view it differently. I have seen various people offer numerous solutions to you, and you just 'handwave' them away as things you don't want to do.
You don't want to buy expensive items
You don't want to give to the poor
You don't want to buy a keep
You don't want to garner favor by offering to pay taxes
You don't want to fund trade caravans, or trading ships, or whatever
You don't want to hire retainers to travel with you
You don't want....

Then when someone suggests that if you don't want to do any of these things... just don't play with gold... you get all offended.


So I need to ask you: why are you responding to my posts in the first place? You don't seem interested in actually accepting the very valid concern that any gamer going from previous editions of D&D to fifth edition will find large holes in the rules where they were used to have excellent support.
I don't see a 'large hole'... I see that you can't buy magic items... but the rules account for this because you don't *need* magic items. Previous editions helped create this 'treadmill' whereby the reason PCs adventured was to get money to get more magic, so they could adventure more. I don't find this to be a feature....

To me, the apparent worthlessness of gold in the game is a major issue, and one that WotC haven't acknowledged yet.
Probably because they don't find it to be 'worthless', it is unnecessary as a *requirement* for further adventuring.... but there is an entire world out there that runs on money..... surely your PC can think of *somthing* to spend it on. And if you can't... why get upset about removing gold entirely? Or if not remove it, just assume it gets taken as taxes or given to charity....

Feel free to not respond unless you want to give it a shot of actually helping me out.
You have been given a lot of help, you just don't seem to want it, you seem to want people to say "Yes, you are right, we need magic shops!!" And it just ain't happenin'

C'mon, its *your* PC... why is he adventuring? What is his goal? Looking for revenge? Wants to see the world? Hates elves? Just what prompts him to leave the safety of his home to go risk his life? That should give you some ideas as to what to spend the gold on.
 

I don't mean this in a dismissive way, but it seems to me you would be better off playing Pathfinder than 5E as it seems to suit your preferences and needs better. There's nothing wrong with that: during the 4E years I had to come to accept that official D&D was not for me either, until it became something I preferred again.
I appreciate that you're trying to help, but Pathfinder did nothing to alleviate the main headache of 3E: the insane complexity of high-level monsters/NPCs. The way character balance varies wildly I can stand, but not the way I'm supposed to spend hours creating NPCs that live for seconds.

I tried 4E too, but while combats were fun in a boardgamey kind of way, they just took too long to play out. You simply couldn't fit more into a night's gaming than perhaps two fights, with very little else in between. (We tried easier fights to, but while they were quicker, they lacked all challenge and thus were boring as hell). I tried several approaches to speed up combat, but in the end I realized the only way I would enjoy the combat was if each game night was reduced to a pair of battle scenarios, and that meant 4E failed as a rpg.

I have high hopes for 5E, and I appreciate nearly everything in the game, especially things that keep high-level complexity to a minimum. Stuff like concentration, three attunements, no stacked buffing, the works.

But one sore thumbs sticks out. The game has completely abandoned the kick-in-the-door game style in one specific aspect: there simply isn't anything to spend your gold on!

If an optional module came out with a 3E-style chapter on pricing and creating the magic items of the 5E DMG, that would solve nearly all of my problems.

And since it would be optional (and not even part of the three core books), the best thing is that all the haters in this thread could ignore it completely and live happily ever after.

(Unless they're secretly convinced it is FUN and COOL to be able to spend gold on trinkets you actually find useful in adventures, and realize their players will want to persuade them to include this supplement in their own games too... ;-) )
 

So I need to ask you: why are you responding to my posts in the first place? You don't seem interested in actually accepting the very valid concern that any gamer going from previous editions of D&D to fifth edition will find large holes in the rules where they were used to have excellent support.

To me, the apparent worthlessness of gold in the game is a major issue, and one that WotC haven't acknowledged yet.
It's a small hole created because they patched much larger holes that previously existed. Not everyone wanted monty haul campaigns with mandated magic items and NPCs covered with magical gear. People want a choice of high magic and low magic campaign that did not previously exist. The choice allows for games that could not have existed otherwise: 3e and PF are ill suited for the LotR style campaign where the players fight waves of orcs wearing crude gear, because the requirements of NPCs means they need a lot of magic at high levels and only fighting NPCs skews WBL.
Also, WotC has acknowledged the issue of spending gold; Mearls talked about what players could buy on in a few places, such as the Reddit AMA.

However, by "worthlessness of gold" and "buy something truly worthwhile and helpful" I assume you mean purchases that have a numerical mechanical increase. Those still exist in the game. Magic item shops are not mandated or even assumed, but they can still exist if you (or your DM) chooses. Players can still potentially buy magic items and load themselves down with +1 swords and armour. Only now the purchase means something, the item provides an actual bonus instead of a theoretical one, and the character isn't spending 10,000gp to keep even with the monsters.
5th Edition D&D is a game designed for people to make their own. At the risk of being dismissive again, complaining that the rules don't support you is a little like complaining a Lego set only comes with a plane and not a car. If the game doesn't feel "just right" then tweak it in a few small ways and see if that fixes things. If your fixes require too much work, or you're unwilling to deviate from RAW, then maybe another game is more suited to your play style. We're currently blessed with an abundance of excellent games to choose from.

I'm dealing with the money problem at my own table in a different way, because my players are so used to the forced inflation of Pathfinder, getting 100gp from a monster at level 5 feels like I'm being stingy with them. It reminds me of the time my players were all Warcraft players and wanted a new magic item each after every quest.
Expectations need to shift with new editions, and that takes time and willingness to be flexible.

All that said, I do acknowledge the lack of character building is somewhat problematic. 3e and 4e really focused on allowing people to customize their characters in a wealth of different ways, picking feats, class variants, skills, magic items, powers, and the like to design the perfect character. This really was a game within a game and allowed people to play D&D on their own. I have a couple optimizers at my table who are less than thrilled by the lack of designing the game allows, and I'm saddened the DMG didn't include more "advanced character building" options. This is a major problem with 5e for some people, but I can understand the designer's reasons for the change.
 

But one sore thumbs sticks out. The game has completely abandoned the kick-in-the-door game style in one specific aspect: there simply isn't anything to spend your gold on!
5e tries to get back to 1e/2e in terms of style. There isn't a lot to spend gold on in those editions either.
 

I view it differently. I have seen various people offer numerous solutions to you, and you just 'handwave' them away as things you don't want to do.
You don't want to buy expensive items
You don't want to give to the poor
You don't want to buy a keep
You don't want to garner favor by offering to pay taxes
You don't want to fund trade caravans, or trading ships, or whatever
You don't want to hire retainers to travel with you
You don't want....
All of these are perfectly alright suggestions.

IF YOU CARE ABOUT DOWNTIME.

I have bent over backwards to make sure I qualify my claims saying they're valid only for those groups who doesn't spend much time or effort on downtime.

But alright. Here we go, one more time.

What good does it do you to carry expensive items along down the dungeon?
How does helping the poor benefit you when you're off into faraway dimensions?
Why would you buy a keep when your next adventure takes you to far away lands?
Why waste time on taxes period?
No I don't want to fund caravans - I want to slay dragons!
Retainers are fiddly and die easily. And they steal your XP.

And so on.

Not everyone plays the game the way you do.

And you know what? That's fine. It really is - if you could only admit D&D used to play a certain way, a way for which there no longer is any rules to support it.

Then when someone suggests that if you don't want to do any of these things... just don't play with gold... you get all offended.
Are you sure you want to go down that road?

Are you really sure you actually want to suggest it would be "easy" to just handwave away gold in the game of D&D?

(Yes, I get offended at someone claiming it would be "easy" to just play without gold, when treasure-hunting is an incredibly integral part of D&D and has always been)

I don't see a 'large hole'... I see that you can't buy magic items... but the rules account for this because you don't *need* magic items.
You don't see a hole because you think people bought magic items as a chore, because they needed to.

What you doesn't seem to fathom is that improving your character and choosing new powerful items to help you during adventures is FUN. People do it for exactly the same reasons they level up, choose feats, and learn new magical spells. Because it is FUN.

(I really didn't think I had to spell that one out. I guess I was wrong.)

you seem to want people to say "Yes, you are right, we need magic shops!!"
No.

I would never want you to say you need magic shops.

What I would like you to do, however, is open your mind to the possibility that SOMEONE is playing the game in a way where magic shops would be welcomed with open arms.

And that since this playing style was incredibly common back in 3E, you would acknowledge the value of an optional supplement to support that play style in 5E, in order to overcome a major incompatibility between these editions.
 

5e tries to get back to 1e/2e in terms of style. There isn't a lot to spend gold on in those editions either.
Thanks.

My view is that this was a shortcoming 3E attempted to solve.

I see no need to turn back the clock in this regard.

5E has the opportunity to provide a solution that won't fall in the two main traps people accuse 3E of. Any solution will not be part of the core books, and magic items is much more optional in general.
 

It's a small hole created because they patched much larger holes that previously existed.

<SNIP>
I know all of this already.

None of it explains why I should accept that I need to create my own guidelines for pricing magic items out of their properties instead of paying professional game designers to write and test them for me.

5E is well prepared for adding such a supplement, since it will be able to remain optional in many ways unavailable to a d20/PF Dungeon Master.
 

If the game doesn't feel "just right" then tweak it in a few small ways and see if that fixes things. If your fixes require too much work, or you're unwilling to deviate from RAW, then maybe another game is more suited to your play style.
I sincerely hope you can understand that players will want to play Dungeons & Dragons and not some other game just because there is one piece of the puzzle currently lacking. And that they aren't prepared to accept the preposterous notion where plowing through one adventure supplement after the other without much pause isn't part of the game anymore.

5E will be alright once people skipping downtime can buy stuff for their gold too.
 

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