Treating two weapons as one

imurphy943

First Post
I was trying to make a paladin NPC the other day, and I realized that there was just no way to allow compatible full-plate and two-weapon fighting without seriously Nerfing my character. When I started thinking about it, the two-weapon fighting rules are unbalanced, and extremely unrealistic. If you've ever played sword-fight with the other kids and some sticks, you know that you don't need to have 'Edward Scissorhands' level manual dexterity to attack with two weapons at the same time. So I submit for peer review this idea: treat two weapons as one. bonuses apply once, and replace the two-weapon fighting feats with proficiency. rule: you take a -4 stacking penalty to hit for each of the following that applies: wielding two weapons off hand weapon is one-handed off hand weapon is exotic these penalties are overcome by the following feats, respectively: two-weapon fighting ambidexterity oversized two-weapon fighting. you also take a -2 penalty to hit unless both weapons are 'balanced' (extra 25 gp cost). masterwork weapons are always balanced. magic weapons must be attuned to each other in order for two of them to be wielded at once. if they are not attuned, then their magic abilities do not function. magic items can be attuned to each other at creation, creating them simultaneously and treating them as one for the purpose of cost. magic items can be attuned after creation with a ritual that costs an amount of gp and time equal to the difference between their combined cost and time expenditure and the time and money that would have been expended, had they been created simultaneously. the 'balanced' quality is designed to make up the difference in cost between, say, a greatsword and two shortswords.
 

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This issue is highly game- and edition-specific. Please let us know what rules you're talking about, and we'll shuffle your thread to the appropriate sub-forum.
 


Could you edit your post and format that a bit please?

As it is right now, I can't follow what you are trying to do as it looks like you are jumping around between two-weapon fighting, weapon proficiencies, and rituals. And unfortunately, I can't suggest anything because I don't understand it.

Thanks.
 

Yes a bit of an edit would be nice. Also I'm assuming you are talking about some sort of proposed rule that you want us to critique. If that is the case I suggest presenting it in the typical feat layout (Name, Prereq, Bonus, Normal, Special) with any additional notes of what we need to understand - what other rules would need changing or the reason for the new rule.

As it is, it's a little all over the place.
 

Sorry. It was really late and I wasn't thinking.

NEW WEAPON QUALITY: Balanced
you take -1 to hit when simultaneously fighting with two weapons that are not both balanced weapons. In addition, some feats may not apply if noted in the feat description.
a balanced weapon costs 20 gp more to make than a regular weapon of the same kind. this cost is doubled for double weapons. masterwork weapons are automatically balanced weapons as well.

NEW RULES:
Two-Weapon Fighting:
any character who is proficient with all martial weapons can fight wielding a weapon in each hand.

when doing so, treat both weapons as one weapon; making one attack roll, and only applying bonuses to damage and extra bonuses (such as from a rogue's sneak attack, or the precise strike feat) once.

If either of the weapons does not have the balanced special quality, you take a -1 penalty to hit. you also take a -4 penalty for each of the following:

one of the weapons is not light
the weapon in your off hand is not light
the weapon in your off hand is exotic

NEW FEATS:

Two-Weapon Fighting
Prerequisites: Proficiency with all martial weapons, Base attack bonus +1

you avoid the -4 penalty for fighting with two weapons, one of which is not light.

Ambidexterity
Prerequisites: Proficiency with all martial weapons, Base attack bonus +1, Two-Weapon Fighting

you avoid the -4 penalty for fighting with a one-handed weapon in your off hand.

Oversized Two-weapon Fighting
Prerequisites: Proficiency with all martial weapons, Base attack bonus +1, Two-Weapon Fighting

you avoid the -4 penalty for fighting with an exotic weapon in your off hand.
______

I don't think I need to repost the bit about magic weapons, which is by the way, to solve the problem that a +2 flaming burst, icy burst greatsword costs an extra 72,000 gold, but two +1, ____ burst shortswords only cost an extra 36,000.
 

you would have to replace the ranger's bonus feat selection, and the monk would just get the feats as bonus feats and count his unarmed strikes as balanced. the two-weapon warrior archetype is now useless, but I think it's a small price to pay to make fighting style again a thematic choice.

and of course, there isn't any reason these rules couldn't coexist with the existing rules, with players choosing which they wish to use.


development note: the whole theory of these rules largely uses the bastard sword and great-sword as a starting point; one feat and an extra 20 gold lets you upgrade the long sword to a bastard sword, at one extra average damage dealt. 20 extra gold each makes two short swords have roughly the same cost, as well as damage, as a great-sword.
 

NEW WEAPON QUALITY: Balanced
you take -1 to hit when simultaneously fighting with two weapons that are not both balanced weapons. In addition, some feats may not apply if noted in the feat description.
a balanced weapon costs 20 gp more to make than a regular weapon of the same kind. this cost is doubled for double weapons. masterwork weapons are automatically balanced weapons as well.
That is pretty much what masterworked weapons are anyway, so I don't see it as a necessary additional rule.

NEW RULES:
Two-Weapon Fighting:
any character who is proficient with all martial weapons can fight wielding a weapon in each hand.

when doing so, treat both weapons as one weapon; making one attack roll, and only applying bonuses to damage and extra bonuses (such as from a rogue's sneak attack, or the precise strike feat) once.

If either of the weapons does not have the balanced special quality, you take a -1 penalty to hit. you also take a -4 penalty for each of the following:

one of the weapons is not light
the weapon in your off hand is not light
the weapon in your off hand is exotic
I'm a little confused on the intent. And about one major part of your change in rules that aren't covered below.

Question 1: The goal is to make the penalties less (and not require the DEX to be so high) correct?
Question 2: How does "when doing so, treat both weapons as one weapon" factor into it? Mostly I mean, damage and benefit. Before fighting with two weapons gave you extra attacks "15/15/10/10/5" for example instead of "17/12/7". Now I'm not sure what this looks like. It is good you clarified the rogue and precision damage only applying once but it isn't clear if you get more attacks, more damage, higher critical (chance or modifier) or what exact benefit it confers.

NEW FEATS:

Two-Weapon Fighting
Prerequisites: Proficiency with all martial weapons, Base attack bonus +1

you avoid the -4 penalty for fighting with two weapons, one of which is not light.
I would change the prerequisite to
"Proficient with a martial weapon, Base attack +1"
from
"Proficiency with all martial weapons, Base attack bonus +1"
Unless there is a very good reason why they must be able to use ALL martial weapons. If you make that one change then it allows people from abnormal classes who trained up to be able to use the feats as well.

Ambidexterity
Prerequisites: Proficiency with all martial weapons, Base attack bonus +1, Two-Weapon Fighting

you avoid the -4 penalty for fighting with a one-handed weapon in your off hand.
I would probably roll this in with the base rules for Two-Weapon Fighting (including the feat). I have seen many professional duelists fight with two weapons - a primary foil and a parrying dagger - and the dagger goes in off hand not the sword.

Oversized Two-weapon Fighting
Prerequisites: Proficiency with all martial weapons, Base attack bonus +1, Two-Weapon Fighting

you avoid the -4 penalty for fighting with an exotic weapon in your off hand.
I would change the proficiency to
"Proficient with an exotic weapon, Base Attack +3, Two-Weapon Fighting"
instead of
"Proficiency with all martial weapons, Base attack bonus +1, Two-Weapon Fighting"
______

I don't think I need to repost the bit about magic weapons, which is by the way, to solve the problem that a +2 flaming burst, icy burst greatsword costs an extra 72,000 gold, but two +1, ____ burst shortswords only cost an extra 36,000.
The point being is that you have a higher chance of hitting with a +2 flaming burst, icy burst greatsword than with two +1 anything bust shortswords. Yes it costs less but you have less chance of doing the same damage or hitting as well. You do however get more attacks to hit with so there is that.
 

I have to say I don't follow. What exactly is it that you are trying to accomplish here?

There are already rules, feats, and handling for two-weapon fighting. In the current iteration, you gain extra attacks (feat dependant after the 1st) and extra damage - not to mention you can use differing weapons in each hand which can grant specific differences (such as differing elemental damages).

If I read your set-up correctly, it looks like you are removing the very benefits granted to two-weapon fighting in order to loosen the penalties in the To Hit department (I think - though I'm not sure since you keep terms such as light weapons for use with one's off hand, etc.). It doesn't make sense, and if I was a player, I'd never use it as it just seems very confusing.

Further, if you want to go this route, why are you requiring that one be proficient with all martial weapons? That means that the fighter auto-gets to use this, but say, a rogue does not (for which the fighter can go sword and board while I'd think a more iconic figure of the rogue would dual wield).

If you really have a heartache with the requirement of feats to gain extra attacks through dual-weilding, then there is a much simpler approach - allow everyone to dual wield without feats. Simply use the existing mechanic and attack scaling.

There are a lot of people who grant all characters in their campaigns certain feats automatically, such as Weapon Finesse and Power Attack. Doing this with two-weapon fighting really wouldn't be a big deal (in my opinion).

If I completely missed the point, my apologies, but hopefully something of this helps trigger additional ideas.
 

Yeah, I don't quite understand why all the hoopla. Dex 16 + Breast Plate = Full Plate + 10 Dex, plus you get Dex-inspired awesomeness.

I think 4e has a two-weapon "attack" that just adds +2 to your damage with no iterative attacks when holding a second weapon.
 

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