Treating two weapons as one

[imurphy943]

That is pretty much what masterworked weapons are anyway, so I don't see it as a necessary additional rule.

For balance reasons, I wanted dual masterwork weapons to have the same chance to hit as a regular masterwork weapon, instead of the bonus and penalty making each other irrelevant- and I figured thematically that you wouldn't spend 20 gold on something you already spent 300 on to make it 'more' masterwork.

Question 1: The goal is to make the penalties less (and not require the DEX to be so high) correct?
Question 2: How does "when doing so, treat both weapons as one weapon" factor into it? Mostly I mean, damage and benefit. Before fighting with two weapons gave you extra attacks "15/15/10/10/5" for example instead of "17/12/7". Now I'm not sure what this looks like. It is good you clarified the rogue and precision damage only applying once but it isn't clear if you get more attacks, more damage, higher critical (chance or modifier) or what exact benefit it confers.

my goal is to balance the rules more, and make them more realistic. you still get 17/12/7, it's just that you roll damage for both weapons on each hit. your critical chance isn't any higher, since you roll once for both weapons, but you multiply each weapons damage seperately. example: rapier+short-sword (18-20/19-20). you roll 18, so the short-sword's damage isn't multiplied if the threat is confirmed. another example: battle-axe+hand-axe (1d8/1d6). it's just 1d8x2+1d6x2.

this is more balanced:
Great-sword: 2d6. 19-20x2. 50 gold.
2 balanced Short-swords: 2d6. 19-20x2. 60 gold (not exactly balanced, but weapon costs vary frequently.)
you need no feat to wield two Short-swords, provided you are proficient with all martial weapons.

I would change the prerequisite to
"Proficient with a martial weapon, Base attack +1"
from
"Proficiency with all martial weapons, Base attack bonus +1"
Unless there is a very good reason why they must be able to use ALL martial weapons. If you make that one change then it allows people from abnormal classes who trained up to be able to use the feats as well.

That would probably be a good idea. I forgot about the dual-wielder rogues- rogues are proficient with rapiers, so this would fix it. I just usually like to play with an open mind and house-rule things when I don't agree with them, but I should be making myself clearer if I want to be taken seriously.

If either of the weapons does not have the balanced special quality, you take a -1 penalty to hit. you also take a -4 penalty for each of the following:

one of the weapons is not light
the weapon in your off hand is not light
the weapon in your off hand is exotic

probably a bit confusingly worded- it looks like it could be taken to mean you avoid ALL the penalties if both weapons are balanced- these are to be similar to proficiency rules; one feat for each die step, extra point of crit multiplier, or extra point of crit range.

2d6 (short-sword/short-sword) Martial weapon proficiency
1d8/1d6 (long-sword/short-sword) Add Two-Weapon Fighting
1d8/1d8 (long/long) Add Ambidexterity
1d10/1d10 (bastard/bastard) Add Exotic weapon proficiency, oversized two-weapon fighting.

and you take a -4 penalty for each step you go up untrained.

I would change the proficiency to
"Proficient with an exotic weapon, Base Attack +3, Two-Weapon Fighting"
instead of
"Proficiency with all martial weapons, Base attack bonus +1, Two-Weapon Fighting"

This feat is more about having the physical capability to fight in this style than skill or training- you still take a -4 penalty if you aren't proficient with the weapon. perhaps it should have somewhat more realistic stat requirements, like Str 13 Dex 13.

The point being is that you have a higher chance of hitting with a +2 flaming burst, icy burst greatsword than with two +1 anything bust shortswords.

I should have included something about weapon +x bonuses stacking, I'm just more used to talking to people personally and not having to have everything in order when you first speak.

 

[Tovec]

For balance reasons, I wanted dual masterwork weapons to have the same chance to hit as a regular masterwork weapon, instead of the bonus and penalty making each other irrelevant- and I figured thematically that you wouldn't spend 20 gold on something you already spent 300 on to make it 'more' masterwork.

What you are suggesting is a little misleading. But my comment was to tell you that making the weapon balanced (and not incurring penalties - technically giving a bonus) is what masterwork IS. Not that masterwork should be this, or cover it but as designed and intended, that is what masterwork actually is.

my goal is to balance the rules more, and make them more realistic. you still get 17/12/7, it's just that you roll damage for both weapons on each hit. your critical chance isn't any higher, since you roll once for both weapons, but you multiply each weapons damage seperately. example: rapier+short-sword (18-20/19-20). you roll 18, so the short-sword's damage isn't multiplied if the threat is confirmed. another example: battle-axe+hand-axe (1d8/1d6). it's just 1d8x2+1d6x2.

this is more balanced:
Great-sword: 2d6. 19-20x2. 50 gold.
2 balanced Short-swords: 2d6. 19-20x2. 60 gold (not exactly balanced, but weapon costs vary frequently.)
you need no feat to wield two Short-swords, provided you are proficient with all martial weapons.

I didn't realize you were rolling once to attack with both weapons. That was the intent of my Question 1 and Question 2 - to clarify what the end result would be. I understand you much better now. In question 2 I was not proposing rules I was trying to ask what the other half of the equation was.

<snip - everything else - snip>

Without your feats to augment your rules, you are taking massive penalties to dual wielding - far more than normal. -12 if it is exotic? Beyond that it is even more powerful than the traditional rules. It allows stronger and heavier weapons than normal.

 

[imurphy943]

yes, eventually you can get dual bastard-sword for 2d10, which is powerful- but it costs 110 gold to get two balanced bastard swords, and it takes four feats to get them- feats that could otherwise be used on something else (e.g. weapon focus/specialization, power attack, furious focus). I'm just taking the current damage-per-gold/feats progression and extending it. It might be good to put more base attack bonus requirement on the feats.