Trip and Stay down

[Particle_Man]

Particle Man: this is pretty much what my player is looking to do. And more power to him, but here are some defenses:

* I would allow a Tumble check to get to a stand without an AoO. Maybe let the Tumble check result be the AC against the AoO? Or just a flat test at DC20? I though this was in Sword'n'Fist but I couldn't find it.

* Crawl/roll out of threatened hex, then stand up. Would crawling 5ft away from your opponent open up to an AoO?

john

Well the latter (crawling 5') draws an Aoo according to the rules. As to the former, I would (given how sick the trip strategy is) be very generous in allowing people to tumble away. I would simply use the rules for tumbling through a threatened space (there is a DC for that) and allow a character who makes that DC to "tumble to a stand" or "tumble the hell out of dodge" without drawing an Aoo. I don't think the rules say that you have to be standing when you initiate a tumble, so why not?

Mind you, those without a tumble skill are still screwed. I guess you have to either have a great tumble skill, be really really strong, or be a strong dwarf. Or stay the hell away from mr. spiked chain.

 

[Legildur]

I like the Tumble solution. That works for me. Although a DM might impose a circumstance penalty (say -2) for Tumbling when prone.

I was trying to find a fair way for someone to escape that Trip trap as I'm building a dwarven monk grappler with bonus feats of Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip (combined with Knockdown from S&F).

Aim to step up, attempt Stunning Fist (50/50 chance for Knockdown to kick in), then kick 'em or grapple/pin while they're down.

But I wanted the DM to have a chance to get his pets up before he nerfed the whole concept - otherwise (Improved) Trip is plain sick!!

 

[Camarath]

But I would counter that being prone is clearly defined in the glossary of the 3.5 PHB as "Lying on the ground". If you are not lying on the ground, then, you are not prone, and hence do not suffer the penalties of that state. If one is performing the "standing up from prone" move-equivalent action, then one is clearly not "lying on the ground" and is therefore not prone.


What am I missing?

-- Vurt

As soon as you cease "Lying on the the ground" you have IMO completed the Standing Up action. How can "An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round" happen after you succeed at your action. Does a movement based AoO ("Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent") happen before or after the opponent leaves the threaned square? I don't see how it could happen after. IMO reaching the non-prone state is the same as reaching your target square i.e. the AoO happens before you get there. And since I dont think that that tripping should stop the actions of an already prone character IMO it should not stop the Stand Up action. I hope that is a bit clearer.

 

[Pagan priest]

It might help if people thought of this whole thing not in binary (prone/standing) but in trinary (prone/getting up/standing). Unless I missed something, the state of being prone does not trigger an AoO. Neither does standing. However, getting up, the act of changing state from prone to standing DOES trigger an AoO. Several of the actions that trigger AoO's are halted before completion by a successful AoO. Getting up is halted by a successful AoO. Since the operation to change state was not completed, the state does not change, the person tripped started to get up, but was knocked back to the floor.

Think of it this way: every time the person on the ground tries to get their feet under them, the tripper can once again knock their feet out from under them.

 

[Legildur]

I agree with Pagan that you can Trip on the AOO to keep them down.

My next question is do you get the +4 attack bonus for them being prone?

I say yes as the AOO occurs before the action (the creature providing an opening by preparing itself to get up) and a successful trip keeps it down. So no need to worry about the binary/trinary argument.

 

[QQQ]

A combatant, Tripper, and his opponent Unlucky square off.

On his action, Tripper successfully trips Unlucky. Unlucky is now prone within Tripper's threatened space.

On Unlucky's action, he stands up from prone. This draws an AOO from Tripper. You mean to say that Tripper cannot attempt to trip Unlucky with his AOO? Why not?

It's pretty pointless to trip someone that is currently prone.

What I understand you saying is that Unlucky is prone until he has successfully completed the "standing up from prone" maneuver, but being prone has no bearing on whether a trip attempt can be made on him.

Why do you want to trip a prone character?

Also, as I understand it, you are saying that poor Unlucky suffers the penalties for being prone until such a point as he can "stand up from prone", since standing is the natural (and hence, unpenalized) state.

But I would counter that being prone is clearly defined in the glossary of the 3.5 PHB as "Lying on the ground". If you are not lying on the ground, then, you are not prone, and hence do not suffer the penalties of that state. If one is performing the "standing up from prone" move-equivalent action, then one is clearly not "lying on the ground" and is therefore not prone.

What am I missing?

There is no halfway state in between prone and standing up.

What happens in your game if unlucky drinks a healing potion? Has he drunk half the potion before the attack of opportunity occurs, getting half the healing?

A silly example: unlucky is hit with a weapon of petrification when standing up. What will his state be when the petrification is removed?

It might help if people thought of this whole thing not in binary (prone/standing) but in trinary (prone/getting up/standing).

I think its more helpful to keep to the states defined in the combat abstraction.

Unless I missed something, the state of being prone does not trigger an AoO. Neither does standing.

I'm with you.

However, getting up, the act of changing state from prone to standing DOES trigger an AoO. Several of the actions that trigger AoO's are halted before completion by a successful AoO.

Correct. The base rule is AFAIK though that the action completes after the AoO unless it is stated otherwise in the rules. Have you seen it stated otherwise?

Getting up is halted by a successful AoO. Since the operation to change state was not completed, the state does not change, the person tripped started to get up, but was knocked back to the floor.

I disagree. A trip attacks alters the foes state to prone, nothing more. The tripping has no effect as the target was already prone. Does a successful AoO in your games stop the completion of drinking a potion when the target is in a prone state? IMHO a successful disarm/sunder AoO would stop the drinking but not any other successful attack (including tripping)

I think the combat rules have been balanced with the intent of being fun and fast rather than being realistic (e.g. Wizards always getting away with 5 feet steps to avoid AoO). Constant tripping is no fun. Being a Wizard and never being able to cast spells when engaged would not be that much fun either. Having a fair chance to be able to do something in combat is important. Having combats degenerate into tripfests is not the way to go. My paranoid self is still worried about the game becoming a grapplefest

I think that invention of new states opens up to many cans of worms.

 

[Vurt]

It's pretty pointless to trip someone that is currently prone.


Why do you want to trip a prone character?

If by "prone" you simply mean "lying on the ground" then I agree with you, it is pretty pointless. If, however, as some folks feel, "prone" includes "standing up from prone", then it is indeed, quite advantageous to trip. My point was actually to show how silly the arguement is that if it's not explicitly denied in the rulebook you then should be able to do it. Common sense and reason must step in somewhere.

What happens in your game if unlucky drinks a healing potion? Has he drunk half the potion before the attack of opportunity occurs, getting half the healing?

Can Unlucky drink his potion while prone? If so, then he can drink the whole potion and gets the full benefits, even if he is tripped. The trip interrupts his action, but I don't see why he can't finish it.

Can Unlucky keep getting up from prone after he's been tripped while trying to get up from prone? That seems a little unreasonable. At least, not without using up another move action to so so.

If you think it is reasonable, then clearly, tripping someone who is using their move action to move 30 ft. through your threatened space allows them, paradoxially, to keep moving to the full extent of the 30 ft. mark after you successfully trip them as part of their original action. I haven't read any rules explicitly preventing this, but do you feel that this is within the spirit of the trip attack?

I disagree. A trip attacks alters the foes state to prone, nothing more. The tripping has no effect as the target was already prone. Does a successful AoO in your games stop the completion of drinking a potion when the target is in a prone state? IMHO a successful disarm/sunder AoO would stop the drinking but not any other successful attack (including tripping)

In my games, if you can perform whatever it was you were attempting to do while being tripped while standing or while prone, then the action is completed after the AOO triggered trip is resolved.

I think the combat rules have been balanced with the intent of being fun and fast rather than being realistic (e.g. Wizards always getting away with 5 feet steps to avoid AoO). Constant tripping is no fun. Being a Wizard and never being able to cast spells when engaged would not be that much fun either. Having a fair chance to be able to do something in combat is important.

Far from being unbalanced, there are still plenty of options! Wizards can cast defensively and thereby avoid AOO in the first place! Or they can perform the withdraw maneuver to safely move back out of the threatened space and then unload on their next turn. Combatants who are fully concealed (ie. invisibility) do not draw AOO in a threatened space. Creative use the battlefield may provide some form of cover, which negates AOO. Spreading out and switching to ranged attacks can turn Tripper into a pincushion. Levitate above the battlefield and your Wizard is safe from his trip attacks. Blind him so he can't perform AOO. Tumblers can potentially engage Tripper without suffering his AOO. Gang up on Tripper and grapple him; let's see him try to use that spiked chain from the bottom of a dogpile. Someone will get through, either by soaking up all his AOO or by having him fail on some of his trip attempts. Step out of his threatened space and charm him, and get him working on your side for a bit!

Having combats degenerate into tripfests is not the way to go. My paranoid self is still worried about the game becoming a grapplefest

I think that invention of new states opens up to many cans of worms.

I fully agree with you on the states/worms thing. (That wasn't actually me you had quoted on that.) But as a DM, I'm far more worried about the party barbarian power attacking with her greataxe than I am of the monk trying to trip one of his opponents and keep him down. Far from every combat degenerating into a trip-fest, now people have viable and effective combat options other than using the biggest two-handed weapon available to max out their damage.

-- Vurt

 

[Lord Thurham]

Standing up from Prone generates an AoO? I went to look this up on the SRD (3.0).

From the SRD (3.0):
____________________________________________
Stand up from prone [Move Equivalent][AoO: No]
Description: Self explanatory.
____________________________________________


Standing up from prone does not generate an AoO in the 3.0 rules. If you are playing by the 3.0 rules, then the whole paradox of having an AoO to trip someone that is attempting to stand up from prone doesn't happen.

If standing up from prone in 3.5 does provoke an AoO, then I'd have to say, that one is now broken. It's pretty tough to get out of that situation without some creative tumbles or crawling.

LT

 

[Pagan priest]

3.5 does indeed say that rising from prone generates an AoO. Its hardly broken, if anything it makes far more sense to say that the act of rising DOES trigger than to say it DOESN'T.

Going back to the original question, yes using the AoO from getting up from prone gets the +4 bonus, even if you are using the AoO to trip them back down again.

So far, I haven't seen any valid arguements against this point.

 

[Camarath]

It might help if people thought of this whole thing not in binary (prone/standing) but in trinary (prone/getting up/standing). Unless I missed something, the state of being prone does not trigger an AoO. Neither does standing. However, getting up, the act of changing state from prone to standing DOES trigger an AoO.

The action standing up trigger the AoO. There is no standing up state, only prone and normal non-prone states are supported by the rules in this case.

Getting up is halted by a successful AoO.

Please provide rule reference for this.

Since the operation to change state was not completed, the state does not change, the person tripped started to get up, but was knocked back to the floor.

Since the operation to change state was not completed the person was still prone when tripped. Also nothing states that this ends your action.

Think of it this way: every time the person on the ground tries to get their feet under them, the tripper can once again knock their feet out from under them.

I understand the "real world" scenarios on which the justifications for the trip chain are based but I think that from a strait rules stand point I am correct.