Trip Fest

[Mouseferatu]

What I think breaks these types of combat maneuvers or allows for misuse is the "improved" feats that remove the threat of an AoO. With the threat of a possible AoO to a character he's going to only use trip, sunder, bull rush when needed and not as a trip monkey etc.

Again, my experience shows otherwise. With the AoO, IME, people just don't ever try the maneuvers. In most cases, if the AoO does damage, the maneuver fails, so people just don't bother making the attempt. The only time I've ever seen disarm/sunder/trip attempts is when people can avoid the AoO, either due to the feat or because of excess reach.

 

[PallidPatience]

If trip is being really useful in your campaign, you're running them only against Medium, bipedal creatures or small creatures in general. If you throw in some monsters, it's VERY hard to trip them. Bigger creatures get size bonuses and have higher Strength scores. Many of them are bipedal. A lot of them have specialty maneuvers of their own.

Tripping shines against Medium, unstable opponents. Just cut back on the swarms of mooks and toss in some actual monsters, and watch those trip rolls fail.

 

[werk]

Use nothing but snakes against them.

And incorporeals.

Or...incorporeal snakes!



There are incorporeal snakes on this incorporeal plane!

 

[Legildur]

It's subject to some interpretation, and I'm fairly certain that the writer's intent was to treat it as an attack action.

Did you speak to him? Or receive an e-mail? The 'writer' that is.

This is a long and tortured debate (Sunder as Standard Action/Attack), and making claims about 'intent' really needs to be backed up with with some evidence if the claim is to have any credibility.

The rules say one thing, the FAQ says another. Generally, it depends on your view on the FAQ as to which answer as right.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Either way, for those that use the 3.5 FAQ as a rules resource; Sunder is treated as an attack action.

Don't forget, the FAQ says it's listed as a standard action because it provokes an AoO.

This reasoning would perhaps be more convincing if Grapple and Disarm didn't provoke AoOs as well...

-Hyp.

 

[Particle_Man]

Try a swarm. they can't be tripped, I think.

 

[mvincent]

making claims about 'intent' really needs to be backed up with with some evidence if the claim is to have any credibility.

Hence my reference to the FAQ.
(yes, I know many of you don't like or use the FAQ... fine... I do, and so do others. I even specifically included in my statement "for those that use the 3.5 FAQ as a rules resource" to avoid such negativity... get over it already)

 

[Legildur]

Sorry if I came across a little negative. But no, I won't 'get over it' because I happen to disagree (not that I put that point across in my original response).

The point I was really trying to make is that I suspect that the author of the FAQ is not the same author who wrote the original rules for Sunder? (happy to be proved wrong here) So I don't see a basis for claiming 'intent'.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Use nothing but snakes against them.

Yeah, but then they'll start to complain about wanting all of those *bleep bleeping* snakes off the *bleep bleeping* campaign.

"SNAKES IN A CAMPAIGN"

(Sorry- had to say it...)

Again, my experience shows otherwise. With the AoO, IME, people just don't ever try the maneuvers. In most cases, if the AoO does damage, the maneuver fails, so people just don't bother making the attempt. The only time I've ever seen disarm/sunder/trip attempts is when people can avoid the AoO, either due to the feat or because of excess reach.

2 of my last 3 PCs are AoO masters, one of whom is a Tripper/Disarmer, the other was a Polearm Dude.

The Tripper's effectiveness was high at lower levels, but has declined somewhat as we've progressed through the RttToEE.

A 2 wpn warrior/mage with a whip and pick, he used the special maneuvers when they made sense; disarming weaker melee opponents like wizards with wands, trying to trip the slightly bigger, nastier critters...with obviously mixed results. However, once they closed within his whip's range, his combat options were VERY limited. Currently, we're facing more of the latter than the former...but I'm expecting spellcasters to increase in frequency.

The Polearm Dude's effectiveness never waned over the course of that campaign.

As long as the opponent could take damage from his weapon, he was fine. Only one creature- a slime- was effectively immune to his reach weapon.

BTW: Slimes cannot be tripped. Nor can Stirges, Beholders, Aboleths, and a whole bunch of other things.

 

[Felix]

The special manaeuvers really are only useful against a part of the PC's opponents:

Trip: Useful against corporeal, bipedal, medium-sized non-casters. (Non-casters because a Caster will [should] just Dimension Door out of there.)

Sunder: Useful against smaller-than-your-weapon manufactured-weapon wielding non-casters, Hydras, and casters using wands, staves, etc. that don't have the good sense to either Dimension Door out or have Mirror Image up.

Grappling: Useful against bipedal non-natural weapon using low-Str, low-BAB, medium or smaller opponents without Escape Artist or Dimension Door.

Sure, these manaeuvers are good against these kinds of opponents, and they can seem overpowering when the majority of enemies are these kinds of opponents, but as soon as the enemy doesn't fit nicely into one of these descriptions, the manaeuver becomes very much less effective.

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Re: Sunder

I think the best reason for Sunder as an attack action is hydra-fighting; I want my greatsword wielding fighter to be able to take out two or three heads a round. [Note that this is not a comment on what the rules say, but rather on how I think they should work.]