Tripping - Just when I thought i had it figured out

[Kwyn]

Greetings

I'm trying to figure out exactly how the trip mechanic works, particularly in conjunction with attacks of opportunity and the improved trip feat. Let me lay this out and then I would love some comments.

TRIP
You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.
If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.
Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.

IMPROVED TRIP [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.
Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed.
Special: At 6th level, a monk may select Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the prerequisites.
A fighter may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Ok. So...

an opponent moves into a threatened square and takes an action that provokes an attack of opportunity. The defender makes a successful trip attack, knocking the opponent prone.

When the opponent takes his move equivalent action to stand up from prone, that provokes another attack of opportunity (if the defender has enough AOO's remaining). If the defender makes another trip attack as his AOO, I had thought that it would result in the opponent finding themselves prone once again.

Then I read this in the "rules of the game" from Skip

Resolve an attack of opportunity before you resolve the action that triggered it, not after. Sometimes, the attack of opportunity will prevent the triggering action (such as when the attack of opportunity proves lethal to a moving character). If someone tries something that provokes an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity happens first. Attacks of opportunity you make in response to a foe's spellcasting or use of a spell-like ability are an exception (see the Making an Attack of Opportunity section), as is moving into a space another creature occupies.

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041026a

This made me believe that when an opponent attempts to stand up, even though you might make another successful trip attack that the AAO actually takes place before he even completes his stand. It would appear that even after you make the AAO trip, the opponent would still be allowed to finish his stand.

Am I reading too much into this?

I was thinking that provided enough AOO's and successful trips you could theoretically keep an opponent down indefinitely as every time he tried to stand he'd be tripped again due to provoking an AOO from standing up.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This made me believe that when an opponent attempts to stand up, even though you might make another successful trip attack that the AAO actually takes place before he even completes his stand. It would appear that even after you make the AAO trip, the opponent would still be allowed to finish his stand.

That's the theory.

Imagine a prone opponent who attempts to pick up a weapon from the floor beside him. Before he gets to resolve this, you use the AoO to try to trip him.

How does one trip someone who is lying on the ground?

The same applies with the stand from prone action provoking the AoO; your attack occurs before they stand up, so you are attempting to trip someone who, at the time, is lying on the ground.

-Hyp.

 

[Kwyn]

So, am I correct in that you cannot repeatedly trip a prone character?

Once they are down, they get a free chance to stand up and regain their footing (even though I would get a regular attack or disarm or whatever as an AOO, just not another trip)?

It seems to be contrary to the way many people use the feat. It seems that every spiked chain build out there for instance has their opponents perma-tripped.

Is this simply a misunderstanding of the rules by a large subset of players?

 

[shilsen]

So, am I correct in that you cannot repeatedly trip a prone character?

Correct.

Once they are down, they get a free chance to stand up and regain their footing (even though I would get a regular attack or disarm or whatever as an AOO, just not another trip)?

Correct. You get an AoO on them for the attempt to rise but the AoO can't be a trip attempt.

It seems to be contrary to the way many people use the feat. It seems that every spiked chain build out there for instance has their opponents perma-tripped.

Is this simply a misunderstanding of the rules by a large subset of players?

Perhaps. The rules don't make it as clear as the RotG segment you quoted does.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, am I correct in that you cannot repeatedly trip a prone character?

You're correct that that's the conclusion Skip's statement leads to.

Personally? I don't see that "Resolve action B before resolving action A" and "Resolve action B before action A begins" are the same thing. He refers to spells being an exception.

I'm inclined, rather, to see spells as an example, demonstrating that while the AoO occurs before the action is completed, it also occurs after the action is begun. So an AoO provoked by someone standing from prone would occur after they had begun to stand, but before they had regained their feet... thus making them trippable, as they are partway through the getting-up process.

There have been long debates on this in this forum (and, doubtless, others) in the past.

-Hyp.

 

[Shane_Leahy]

The way to perma-trip someone is readied actions...

I believe this would work...

You ready an action to trip someone if they stand up in front of you.

They provoke an AoO, you trip them. Now when they stand up, you get the AoO, and when they get to their feet your readied action occurs and you trip them again.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The way to perma-trip someone is readied actions...

The problem being that they can attempt to stand twice, and you only get to ready one action... you can't keep them down for more than a couple of rounds this way.

-Hyp.