Tripping Snakes

[Uder]

Can you trip a snake? A centipede? Amazingly, these both came up in the same session. I made a quick ruling that you could, but they could "stand up" as a free action that doesn't provoke AoO. What's the real rule? We'll probably stick with my quick ruling, but it'd be nice to know the "right" way.

 

[Infiniti2000]

There are no actual rules that say a snake cannot be made prone. However, the definition of the prone condition is that the victim is "on the ground." One could reasonable argue that a snake is already on the ground and thus cannot be made further on the ground and by definition never suffers from the prone condition. This is, I believe, the argument that the FAQ takes, which states:

Given that being prone means you are lying on the ground (Player’s Handbook, page 311), who can be prone? Can oozes be prone? What about creatures with no limbs like snakes? What about incorporeal creatures?

Anybody can be “prone.” Creatures that use limbs for locomotion can use a free action to drop prone and must use a move action to stand up again. Something with no motive limbs, such as a snake, can go prone or “stand up” as a free action. Such creatures might want to become prone to gain an Armor Class bonus against ranged attacks. (Although giving something like a gelatinous cube that option defies common sense and should not be allowed.) Officially, there’s an attack of opportunity any time a creature stands up. The Sage, however, heartily recommends no attack of opportunity when a snake or similar creature “stands up.”

 

[werk]

I believe there is something in trip about not being able to trip creatures with no legs...like wraiths. Looking for that now.

You could trip a centipede but its bonus against tripping is stupid high due to so many legs...quadrapeds like dogs get a bonus IIRC. Looking for that too...

 

[Krelios]

Can you trip a snake? A centipede? Amazingly, these both came up in the same session. I made a quick ruling that you could, but they could "stand up" as a free action that doesn't provoke AoO. What's the real rule? We'll probably stick with my quick ruling, but it'd be nice to know the "right" way.

Why are we even looking for rules? Common sense should be sufficient here--you can't trip something that can't fall down.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, I guess that depends upon how you envision "knocking prone."

As a bipedal creature, I could be knocked on my side, my belly, or my back...and you can DEFINITELY turn a snake on its side or back.

It just won't stay that way for more than a millisecond.

IOW, I'd say you CAN "trip" a snake, but it doesn't do you any good to do so.

 

[howandwhy99]

Tripping snakes?

That's nothin'. After my cocktail breakfast me and my cat were tripping balls.

 

[werk]

Rules of the Game! I knew I wasn't making this stuff up.

"You can make a trip attack against any corporeal creature that is standing more or less upright (more about this in Part Two) whether that creature is moving or standing still."

"A defender (only) with more than four legs gains a +4 bonus on opposed checks to avoid being tripped."

and the coup de grace

"Who Can Be Tripped: Any creature that is subject to gravity and somehow holds itself off the ground is subject to trip attacks. Incorporeal creatures can't be tripped -- even by other incorporeal creatures -- because they can't fall down. A prone creature has already fallen down and can't be tripped. (This can prove significant when you've tripped a foe and wish to keep him down; see the section on being tripped [below].) Limbless creatures pretty much just lie on the ground (at least while using their normal land speeds or just standing around on a fairly level space) and usually can't be tripped unless they're climbing or in some other precarious situation. This includes creatures with the ooze type, snakes, and anything else that wiggles and slithers. The rules don't give any guidance on creatures whose body types make them immune to trip attacks, so you'll have to rely on your common sense here."

 

[Question]

What is so difficult about tripping a centipede? I mean, just take a stick, flip it over. Unless its some kind of giant centipede, its not hard.

 

[Uder]

IOW, I'd say you CAN "trip" a snake, but it doesn't do you any good to do so.

Well, in the case of my spot ruling it allowed a character with Imp. Trip to make his followup attack. IMO it doesn't hurt (ahem) balance in any way, so I allowed it.

Anyways, nice to know that the RotG and FAQ articles mostly back me up on this, even the RAW to some extent. Thanks folks!

 

[Uder]

What is so difficult about tripping a centipede? I mean, just take a stick, flip it over. Unless its some kind of giant centipede, its not hard.

It was a huge centipede vs. an enlarged dwarf... and wasn't as one-sided as you might think.

Also, having actually flipped centipedes before IRL, I know that they don't stay flipped. It's been a while since I was a bug-taunting child, but I remember it being somewhat hypnotic watching them "curl" over as they righted themselves from front to back.