Tripping

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Tripping is a choice though. Most players will not try to trip an opponent who they think has a better than 50/50 chance to win. In fact, most players who like to trip take Improved Trip in order to up their odds even more. So, very few players would attempt to trip a hill giant and those who try it would tend to do it with a weapon they can drop if the counter trip attempt is successful (e.g. some type of flail).



Which is why Improved Trip is so nasty when combined with Power Attack. Higher level characters can shift a third of their to hit to Power Attack, still easily make the touch attack to trip, not get penalized on the opposed roll (since the Power Attack penalty only modifies the touch attack roll), and then if the trip is successful, they will often hit with the extra Improved Trip attack and the extra attacks for the round due to BAB because of the Prone bonus. This can get very nasty very quick.

Though I prefer to use the weakest Attack to trip my opponents... This still forces them to lose a move action (and thus their fullround action) the next round to stand up (and provoke an AoO). Maybe I should experiment if the other tactic would work better...

 

[Liquidsabre]

Is there a reason you couldn't take the 'fighting with two weapons' penalties and get two unarmed trip attempts (whether holding non-trip weapons or not)?

With TWF you can only get an extra attack with your off-hand (weapon or unarmed). Body parts may not be substituted for this extra attack. So no trip attempt can be made with your extra TWF attack unless one carries a trip weapon in their off-hand or their off-hand is relatively empty (so it can be used to make an unarmed melee attack).

 

[Hypersmurf]

With TWF you can only get an extra attack with your off-hand (weapon or unarmed). Body parts may not be substituted for this extra attack. So no trip attempt can be made with your extra TWF attack unless one carries a trip weapon in their off-hand or their off-hand is relatively empty (so it can be used to make an unarmed melee attack).

Would you not allow an attack with a primary longsword, and an off-hand attack with a kick or headbutt, then?

-Hyp.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Would you not allow an attack with a primary longsword, and an off-hand attack with a kick or headbutt, then?

By the rules, I don't think we can allow that with the extra attack granted by TWF. Unless we've got text somewhere stating that in general "off-hand" attacks can be made with any part of the body and not just the actual "off-hand". I believe armor spikes allows this sort of exception, but states specifically that armor spikes may be used as an "off-hand" attack.

 

[PallidPatience]

Not strictly true. From the PHB glossary we have an unarmed strike as a 'successful blow .... from a character attacking without weapons.'

The phrase "attacking without weapons" is not the same as the phrase "attacking while not holding weapons". If I punch you in the face, I'm attacking you without a weapon, whether I'm holding a sword in that hand or not.

Saying that, and since non-monks would have to take an extra feat to be able to easily attack with an unarmed strike anyway, I'd rule that it's not against the spirit of the rules to allow unarmed attacks to be made as off-hand attacks.

Honestly, I think the rules support it, at least indirectly, anyway. For instance, the Combat I portion of the SRD has this to say:

"Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:"

The following exceptions are that unarmed attacks provoke attacks of opportunity, deal less damage than most melee weapons of the character's size, and don't deal lethal damage normally.

Actually, strike that. The SRD outright states, in its definition of unarmed attacks, the following, under the heading '"Armed" unarmed attacks':

"Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on)."

Therefore, you could use unarmed attacks as off-hand attacks. It also mentions that unarmed attacks include such things as "punches, kicks, and headbutts", so it's simple to infer that you could choose to make an unarmed attack, such as a kick, even when you're holding two swords.

 

[Goldmoon]

Lets take this a step further: If you are fighting two opponents and you use, say a flail, to trip one can you use cleave to trip the other? As long as the flail attack on the first person did damage, I dont see why not.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Saying that, and since non-monks would have to take an extra feat to be able to easily attack with an unarmed strike anyway, I'd rule that it's not against the spirit of the rules to allow unarmed attacks to be made as off-hand attacks.

Right, I don't really see it as that big of a deal and I'm sure most folk tend waive this to allow TWF used in conjunction with unarmed strikes/melee weapons/etc. The purpose here is just to see what the RAW allows and then DMs can take it from there. Deciding what they want to do with it for their own game, naturally.

"Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on)."

I'm afraid it's still missing the specification that unarmed strikes (using the various body parts of course) may be used to make off-hand attacks.