Trips?

[Taren Seeker]

I haven't seen that states it explicitly, but I don't really see how you can use a dagger or crossbow to trip someone.

Can you cite a rule that says that any weapon can be used to make a trip attack?

The only rules that I can find are somewhat circumstantial and support Caliban and myself. Aside from the restriction that only a melee attack can be used under Trip, the weapon descriptions simply state that "this weapon may be used to make trip attacks."

As stated in a previous post as well, if you're using a weapon to trip, you should always be able to drop it to prevent a counter trip. This lends weight to the idea that if the weapon doesn't have the "can be used" entry, then you can't trip with it. I had someone at the table say that the entire purpose of these entries under weapon descriptions were to stipulate which can be dropped.

BTW Caliban, as a side note, I could see someone tripping with a crossbow, but only when using it as a melee weapon. There's lots of nice protrusions on the xbow to hook someone's leg. Not a dagger though. However, since you appraently can't trip with a staff the entries don't always make sense.

 

[Taren Seeker]

Note that under certain circumstances, a combatant attacking without a weapon is still considered "armed". "

I'm thinking that making a trip attempt is a more threatening form of unarmed attack and would qualify for the above exception.

Regarding your point of a hand blazing with harm, there's no indication that the cleric's hand would look at all different. I'm sure there are many touch attack spells that don't have a visible aura. The Poison spell for instance. Meanwhile, certain others are explicitly mentioned to have an aura, like Handfire.

 

[kreynolds]

...since you appraently can't trip with a staff the entries don't always make sense.

Oh! That one's easy!! You can't trip with a staff because it's...uh...well...a staff is....uhm...it's made of....no...uhm...it wasn't made to....no...uh....hell...

....ok, I can't think of any logical reason why you can't trip someone with a big fricking stick.

 

[ZSutherland]

I think the difference is in the reasoning that unarmed attacks provoke AoO's but melee touch attacks do not. If you're armed and armored and an opponent w/o Improved Unarm Strike (which effectively means he/she isn't trained to attack w/o weapons) throws a punch at you, it's probably just a haymaker, sort of a wild punch stemming from lack of training. It's not really much of a threat, and it's an easy Opportunity to toss out a quick attack against him/her. If they are trained (have Improved Unarmed Strike) it's probably a bit clearer that they know what they're doing. You'll view them as a more credible threat, and spend more of your attention on self-defense. The same applies for melee touch attacks. If the guy across the way in robes was chanting and praying and then suddenly just tries to lightly touch you, you're suddenly concerned for your continued well being (see Harm), so again, you're more defensive.

1d3 subdual's not much of a problem for most people. Being prone in the middle of combat, however is. Any attack that might put you there (and someone trying to sweep your legs out from under you or unbalance you is fairly obvious) is something you're likely to view as a credible threat, and therefore stay somewhat defensive. However, if they fail their attempt, they're probably off balance, either because they're crouched with one leg out or their failed attempt to knock you over left them over-extended, so you now get the chance to use that to your advantage and put them on the ground.

Hope that helps.

 

[Caliban]

The question is, is trip considered attacking unarmed, if you aren't using a special trip weapon? If yes, then you provoke an AoO whenever you try to trip someone. Whatcha think Caliban?

A trip is a seperate action type from unarmed strike.

From the SRD:

Trip an opponent [Varies][AoO: No]

I belive this is also noted in the Misc. Action table on page 128 of the PHB. (I don't have my books with me at the moment.)

 

[peteyfrogboy]

I always assumed that trip attacks were made by simply kicking your opponent's feet out from under them, no matter what weapon you're holding. I think that the trip reference in the spiked chain entry is there because it is a reach weapon. A longspear, for example would not allow you to trip an opponent 10 feet away, since all you can really do is poke at their feet. The spiked chain allows you to perform a special "ranged trip" maneuver because of the unique nature of the weapon.

 

[Rashak Mani]

Lets get this straight.
Some of you think Trip causes AoO unless you have a special trip weapon (ex: flail) or are a monk ?

I have to completly disagree for two reasons:
First - Improved Trip which is a good feat would become a darn bad feat to get with any Fighter, because you would be hit by an AoO to then see if you trip the guy and then get a free attack. The feat becomes useless against anything armed.

Second - Knockdown from Sword and fist, its the improved trip but backwards, first you do the attack, if you do 10+ damage then you may try to trip the opponent if you want. Seems like im hitting you with an AXE in the chest and using the same energy to knock you down, Im not hitting you and then trying to put my leg behind you so you can fall down.

Trip is with the weapon in hand, monks have hands for weapons, and a Dwarf with a BIG AXE will not choose his short legs to try and trip you, HE WILL USE THE AXE !

(At the wizards site they have those GameStoppers which gives examples of some rules, but they used a Whip for the trip so cant use that for an example here).

 

[Taren Seeker]

Lets get this straight.
Some of you think Trip causes AoO unless you have a special trip weapon (ex: flail) or are a monk ?

Well, sort of. I did think that an unarmed trip attempt would cause an AoO. I've been convinced otherwise.

I have to completly disagree for two reasons:
First - Improved Trip which is a good feat would become a darn bad feat to get with any Fighter, because you would be hit by an AoO to then see if you trip the guy and then get a free attack. The feat becomes useless against anything armed.

Not useless, especially since a fighter can easily have access to a weapon that allows a trip. Even if there was an AoO, it doesn't make it useless.

Second - Knockdown from Sword and fist, its the improved trip but backwards, first you do the attack, if you do 10+ damage then you may try to trip the opponent if you want. Seems like im hitting you with an AXE in the chest and using the same energy to knock you down, Im not hitting you and then trying to put my leg behind you so you can fall down.

Knockdown is a special case and not relevant to the discussion. Knockdown doesn't even use a touch attack. You're right that in this case, the force of the blow causes the trip. That's why it's a feat.

Trip is with the weapon in hand, monks have hands for weapons, and a Dwarf with a BIG AXE will not choose his short legs to try and trip you, HE WILL USE THE AXE !

This is not supported in the item description of any axe. A dwarf may not want to use his foot, but may try to grab his opponent's leg or grab his belt and jerk him off balance. Trip attacks can be envisioned as some type of judo throw where they grab the lapel of the opponent and spin him to the ground.

 

[Quidam]

Are any of the "this can be used to trip" entries in the descriptions of weapons that aren't treated as range weapons? I know this point has been made, but I always thought any melee weapon could trip and that the only reason mention was made for those weapons was becaused of their pseudo-ranged nature.

 

[dcollins]

Trip an opponent [Varies][AoO: No]

I belive this is also noted in the Misc. Action table on page 128 of the PHB. (I don't have my books with me at the moment.)

That's correct. "Trip an opponent: No [Attack of Opportunity]".

Are any of the "this can be used to trip" entries in the descriptions of weapons that aren't treated as range weapons?

Yes (and I assume you mean "reach", not "range").
Light flail, heavy flail, dire flail, and halberd.