Tropes that need to die

[Leatherhead]

But, if you allow the non-magic types to be fantastic - James Bond, Conan (yes, I do consider Conan fantastic), Batman, that sort of thing - not magical in the special effects way, but still far beyond normal human, then it works a great deal better, IMO.

Exactly.

Imagine the prototypical level one DnD fighter: A farmhand who gets their hands on a sword, and then joins up with a band of mercenaries who save the town from a monster or warband. This sets off their adventuring career.

Just picking up a sword and suddenly being competent with it is already head-and-shoulders above the common person. Going out and saving the day makes them solidly fantastic. But for some reason, this character is played as a "mundane."

 

[Hussar]

Leatherhead - well, I suppose it goes back to the fragility of earlier edition characters. A 1st level fighter in Basic D&D wasn't really all that much head and shoulders above a commoner, depending on how the dice rolling went.

But, we've moved away from that a pretty long time ago. Even by 2nd edition, with character generation methods that created pretty high stat character (something 1st edition did as well - see the Unearthed Arcana), kits and things like weapon specialization and two weapon fighting, a 1st level fighter (or fighter type) was head and shoulders above the man, common. 3e and to a much greater extent 4e, made 1st level characters signficantly better.

In 3e it's built right in. PC's use elite stats or even higher, commoners don't. There's a basic presumption that your PC is measurably better than a regular joe, even at 0 xp.

 

[Orius]

There's nothing wrong with a trope in and of itself.

And even that's a trope!

Like you say, if you look at any trope long enough you can probably figure out its strengths and weaknesses. Then you can hit the players where they want to be hit, while still being creative.

I think too it depends on what kind of game people want to play. A group that just wants to smash up imaginary monsters over pretzels and beer is probably going to be less concerned about tropes than a group interested deep immersive RPing. My guess is that the power gamers, simulationists and the like will tend to be less concerned, while the storytellers and method actors will roll their eyes at any undecontructed trope that turns up. (The causal gamers won't care and the munchkins as always are playing to "win").

 

[Jacob Marley]

Imagine the prototypical level one DnD fighter: A farmhand who gets their hands on a sword, and then joins up with a band of mercenaries who save the town from a monster or warband. This sets off their adventuring career.

Just picking up a sword and suddenly being competent with it is already head-and-shoulders above the common person. Going out and saving the day makes them solidly fantastic. But for some reason, this character is played as a "mundane."

Certainly. In a world where every character is a first-level commoner, expert, or warrior then that first-level fighter is going to seem truly remarkable; fantastic even! He does things that most ordinary people simply cannot do.

Now imagine a world where there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people just like him; and in this world there are people who speak to gods, throw balls of fire from their finger tips, and change into animals on a daily basis. How fantastic is one guy swinging a sword, really? Seems rather mundane to me.

I don't see fantastic or mundane as traits where something either is or is not. Rather, I see it as a perspective. From a certain point of view something can be both mundane and fantastic.

Using 3.5 as an example, take the Everfull Mug. From the point of view of your average commoner an Everfull Mug is a truly fantastic item. Here is an item unlike any other mug in their house - it creates water! From the point of view of an adventurer, an Everfull Mug can seem rather mundane. Every adventurer has one, you can find one in almost any old town, and all it does is creates water.

 

[Lanefan]

Um. Wood dude. England darn near ran out of trees burning their dead.

And building ships. A ridiculous amount of British lumber went into ships, mostly warships.

A 1st level fighter in Basic D&D wasn't really all that much head and shoulders above a commoner, depending on how the dice rolling went.

But, we've moved away from that a pretty long time ago. Even by 2nd edition, with character generation methods that created pretty high stat character (something 1st edition did as well - see the Unearthed Arcana), kits and things like weapon specialization and two weapon fighting, a 1st level fighter (or fighter type) was head and shoulders above the man, common. 3e and to a much greater extent 4e, made 1st level characters signficantly better.

In 3e it's built right in. PC's use elite stats or even higher, commoners don't. There's a basic presumption that your PC is measurably better than a regular joe, even at 0 xp.

And that too has become a trope within the game; that the most basic of PCs are so much different than commoners before earning a single experience point.

If a trope needs to die, that one gets my vote.

Lanefan

 

[AllisterH]

In 3e it's built right in. PC's use elite stats or even higher, commoners don't. There's a basic presumption that your PC is measurably better than a regular joe, even at 0 xp.

I'm not sure this is true with regard to either 3e or 4e....

Note that in both 3e and 4e, the town guard is ALSO tougher than the common person. Indeed, in 4e, a town guard is tougher than the 1st level PC as are the bandits, pirates etc.

 

[Jhaelen]

(3) Finally, it is not unusual to encounter magical lakes in Anglo Saxon folklore, and this lake is otherwise described as having unusual qualities....such as boiling black with blood. It may well be the setting that is fantastic, and Beowulf survives that long below water not because he can breathe water, but because the lake itself is prepresentative of an "Otherworld" with non-mundane qualities.

Emphasis mine. In other words: In a fantastic setting, even 'mundane' people are able to perform actions that would be deemed fantastic in a mundane setting.

Hence, there is no reason not to allow mundane (martial) characters to have fantastic (magical) powers in a setting that is entirely fantastic. I think all of the popular D&D settings fall into that category.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Lines 120-125, Seamus Heaney translation:

I am aware of it; I am also aware of other translations. Which is why I said it depends upon the translation. It may also depend upon Grendel's "Glove of Holding"!

Just picking up a sword and suddenly being competent with it is already head-and-shoulders above the common person. Going out and saving the day makes them solidly fantastic. But for some reason, this character is played as a "mundane."

Again, this argument conflates meanings of "fantastic" and "mundane". No one is claiming that a fighter should not be able to perform better than the average man; in this case "mundane" is opposed to "magical" or "supernatural". It does not mean "hum-drum" or "run-of-the-mill".

Any argument that relies upon the "hum-drum" or "run-of-the-mill" meaning of "mundane" is, therefore, a straw man. Easy to set up, easy to knock down, and wholly irrelevant.

The biggest problem with trying to define the "fantastic" is the people's definitions will vary more based on their own particular biases than any sort of objective view. Which makes sense since fantastic is pretty vague.

A hobbit can hide a short distance away from one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth and not be found. Fantastic? A hobbit can resist the most powerful artifact, the one that destroys even the elves. Fantastic? Depends on how you define things.

This is exactly correct. Some things that seem fantastic can, and do, occur in the real world. Some things that do not seem fantastic are, in point of fact, pretty darn unlikely in the real world. I've known players who imagine that building a cart can be done in an afternoon without tools or materials, for example. I would call that a pretty fantastic feat!

From a D&D perspective though, the problem is, fighters and the non-magic types become essentially Muggles in a Harry Potter Universe as soon as the casters hit any significant levels. Conan, in a Harry Potter world, wouldn't last ten seconds against children, considering what students can do in that world. And that's what (at least 3e and 4e) casters become in D&D.

I would say that this is a problem with the system, if and only if you want a game in which it is possible to play Conan. I have a sneaking suspicion that, in most D&D worlds, there should actually be fewer spellslingers than there typically are, and even fewer at high levels. Smart money would have the Conans and James Bonds killing them before they become a threat!

But, if you allow the non-magic types to be fantastic - James Bond, Conan (yes, I do consider Conan fantastic), Batman, that sort of thing - not magical in the special effects way, but still far beyond normal human, then it works a great deal better, IMO.

Emphasis mine. In other words: In a fantastic setting, even 'mundane' people are able to perform actions that would be deemed fantastic in a mundane setting.

Hence, there is no reason not to allow mundane (martial) characters to have fantastic (magical) powers in a setting that is entirely fantastic. I think all of the popular D&D settings fall into that category.

I would point out that there is a difference between the fantastic inherent in the setting (at Grendel Lake, you can breathe the water) and in the character (you can always breathe the water). Likewise, there is a difference between the fantastic being inherently pervasive in the setting (on Algol, the water is breathable) or in the character (on Barsoom, only John Carter can leap about like a cricket).

Certainly, if that is what is desired, there is no reason not to allow mundane (non-supernatural) characters from doing things that would seem fantastic from our perspective, at least to the level of Conan. When you get to the level of Batman, though.......

Obviously, it depends upon the desires of the people involved with the game. There is nothing wrong, and quite a bit right, with ensuring that the game you are playing is the game you want to be playing.

There is nothing wrong with wahoo! fighters if you want wahoo! fighters.

Likewise, there is nothing wrong with having other options if you want those options.


RC

 

[Bluenose]

From a D&D perspective though, the problem is, fighters and the non-magic types become essentially Muggles in a Harry Potter Universe as soon as the casters hit any significant levels. Conan, in a Harry Potter world, wouldn't last ten seconds against children, considering what students can do in that world. And that's what (at least 3e and 4e) casters become in D&D.

But, if you allow the non-magic types to be fantastic - James Bond, Conan (yes, I do consider Conan fantastic), Batman, that sort of thing - not magical in the special effects way, but still far beyond normal human, then it works a great deal better, IMO.

A better solution, surely, is to reign in the casters in most games to something a lot closer to most of their fictional/mythical counterparts. Have your casters be Merlin-level, rather than Harry Potter. If you let D&D wizards be more powerful than Merlin, or Circe, or Thoth-Amon, or Baba Yaga, then you shouldn't be surprised that warriors comparably as powerful as the ones in those tales are outclassed.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'm not sure this is true with regard to either 3e or 4e....

Note that in both 3e and 4e, the town guard is ALSO tougher than the common person. Indeed, in 4e, a town guard is tougher than the 1st level PC as are the bandits, pirates etc.

Indeed. A 1st level PC in 4e can easily beat up the average craftsman or member of a pitchfork-waving mob. But armoured or trained humans such as town guard are about third level I think. First level you're about on a par with a goblin or kobold and you need to reach fourth level to be officially a match for the average orc warband member (excluding the unarmoured minions they bring along - and those shock troops are nasty).