Tropes that need to die

[DragonLancer]

That's what I liked so much about Eberron. It was the first basic D&D setting (as opposed to specialized settings like Dark Sun or Planescape) that imagined a world where its fantasy elements were central to its development.

That was the same reason it turned me off of it. Eberron was just too alien for my palette. I played a short campaign in the setting to give it a chance but I couldn't get into the setting because of it.

 

[Hussar]

The implications of magic depend on the assumptions behind it. Medieval European settings with a veneer of magic aren't ignoring the implications of magic, at least not necessarily, if you assume that magic isn't really something every man on the street can learn to use. It may be available to every PC, but PCs are special. The rest of the people in the setting may not be.

It may be refreshing to see a setting built around the presence of fantasy, but they'd also be built with the assumption that magical elements are common and usable by everybody. That would be the point of departure, not the existence of fantasy and magic in the first part.

But it's not just that. Fantasy doesn't just mean magic. That's why I pointed to the idea of domesticatable flying creatures. Or giant beetles. In Basic D&D, giant bees honey could be used as potions of healing. You're going to tell me that people aren't going to jump on that?

In D&D, there are a bajillion reasons why a fantasy world wouldn't look like Europe with a veneer of magic. I've yet to see a compelling reason why a D&D world would actually look like that. The demographics don't fit, the magic system wouldn't work, the sheer numbers of monsters and the like would make it virtually impossible.

Yet, everyone wants D&D worlds to look like Middle Earth.

 

[AllisterH]

Depends on which edition of D&D you are using as a baseline.

If you're using 3.x and 4e, then yeah, there probably needs to be a very good reason why most settings don't more resemble Eberron.

If you're using pre 3e, then you CAN get away with the "magic is simply a veneer over your typical European medieval setting". - no easy spell creation, no easy magic item creation, no easy spell acquisition. - It's quite possible for a player NOT to have specific spells even at 1st level since two of the 3 DMG methods for assigning 1st level spells requires DM input.

re: Younger players

I think there IS a change happening with younger players. Younger players are growing up with NOT Conan, the LotR book trilogy or Fahrd and the Grey Mouser
They're growing up with BLEACH, Legolas from the movies - he of shield surfing fame and the idea of "bullet-timers"..

What they expect from a warrior I suspect is going to be much different than what the majority of us grew up with in the 70s/80s.

 

[Relique du Madde]

I don't think a truly "magical society" setting exists for one reason: After a while, at least one epic-leveled anarchist mage or bored deity will come and "turn off" the worlds magic once it becomes too prevalent just to see "what happens next."

 

[AllisterH]

I don't think a truly "magical society" setting exists for one reason: After a while, at least one epic-leveled anarchist mage or bored deity will come and "turn off" the worlds magic once it becomes too prevalent just to see "what happens next."

Yeah that pretty much is what the RSE are.

ALWAYS involve magic somehow with the outcome that magic works differently for some reason...

See why illusionists in the realms no longer have their own "brand" of magic, why 10th level magic no longer exists and the change from 3.e magic system to the 4e magic system.

 

[billd91]

But it's not just that. Fantasy doesn't just mean magic. That's why I pointed to the idea of domesticatable flying creatures. Or giant beetles. In Basic D&D, giant bees honey could be used as potions of healing. You're going to tell me that people aren't going to jump on that?

But how many creatures can truly be domesticated? How many species in history have been domesticated out of a choice of millions? An extremely small handful. Why would we expect a fantasy environment to be that much different?
Again, it comes down to how common and usable these fantasy elements, whether magic or creatures, are assumed to be.

 

[The Shaman]

But how many creatures can truly be domesticated? How many species in history have been domesticated out of a choice of millions? An extremely small handful. Why would we expect a fantasy environment to be that much different?
Again, it comes down to how common and usable these fantasy elements, whether magic or creatures, are assumed to be.

"You must spread some Experience Points around . . . "

 

[Bluenose]

But it's not just that. Fantasy doesn't just mean magic. That's why I pointed to the idea of domesticatable flying creatures. Or giant beetles. In Basic D&D, giant bees honey could be used as potions of healing. You're going to tell me that people aren't going to jump on that?

In D&D, there are a bajillion reasons why a fantasy world wouldn't look like Europe with a veneer of magic. I've yet to see a compelling reason why a D&D world would actually look like that. The demographics don't fit, the magic system wouldn't work, the sheer numbers of monsters and the like would make it virtually impossible.

Yet, everyone wants D&D worlds to look like Middle Earth.

Mythical/magical reasons. "Our god beat up the god of bees back in the dawn age, now we have the secret of taking the magic honey from the bee-people. When our neighbours god tried to do the same, the bee god used his sting, and their weak and foolish god ran away like the coward he is. That's why our neighbours are scared of bees, and have to pay us for their magical honey." That's how it would be explained in Glorantha.

Of course, Glorantha mostly doesn't look like feudal Europe either. But it could be done that way. Secret groups with strange rituals aren't exactly absent from medieval society. So the Ancient Order of Bee-Wranglers teach their secret methods only to one apprentice, who swears on pain of death to teach it to one apprentice in their turn. If someone betrays that, well, it's time to "Cry havoc, and set loose the bees of war!"

 

[BryonD]

Yet, everyone wants D&D worlds to look like Middle Earth.

It is called boundary conditions.

And to a lesser extent, it is called "use the rules, don't let the rules use you."

But in the end it is odd to me that you would put a troubled smiley after expressing the idea that individual "wants" do not descend from your logical assessment of how things should be. To me, if that kind of "logic" trumped individual taste and preference then THAT deserves bewilderment.

On occasion it can require a little work, but the great majority of the time it simply requires accepting the classical stereotypes as the understood boundary conditions for a setting and not spending time going out of your own way to undermine your own fun by dwelling on silly things that never appear on-screen.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Yet, everyone wants D&D worlds to look like Middle Earth.

Hang on a sec... in that other thread, hasn't the largest portion of votes gone to "Yeah, guns!"...?

Just for starters. So, who is this "everyone" you speak of?

As for settings making perfect sense, well, have you seen or read much sci-fi lately? Or, yeah, any kind of fantasy at all? Myth, legend, folklore? Eesh, many a rendering of 21st Century "real life"...