That's what level we were when my group tackled those adventures. I really wish Troll Lords would have come out with a Monsters & Treasures II that had all the extraplanar creatures from the 1e and 2e monster books, especially the demon and devil lords. I know that I could just translate them on my own, but for these powerful beings you have to do more than just flip the AC and alter the movement.
Tropes that need to die
- Thread starter JacktheRabbit
- Start date
That's what level we were when my group tackled those adventures. I really wish Troll Lords would have come out with a Monsters & Treasures II that had all the extraplanar creatures from the 1e and 2e monster books, especially the demon and devil lords. I know that I could just translate them on my own, but for these powerful beings you have to do more than just flip the AC and alter the movement.
Celebrim
Legend
There was virtually nothing in the game which could be used unmodified to challenge a typical party beyond the 10th level. The game just wasn't designed for that. At 10th level and above, there was an assumption that characters would spend more time 'solo' adventuring (along with perhaps henchmen) or that they'd retire.
The monster manual(s) classified monsters from I to X. First level characters were assumed to mostly encounter type I monsters, 2nd level type II's, 3rd level type III's and so forth. Above 10th level, there wasn't much that could be a challenge. Typically challenges were built from the following at those levels:
1) NPC's - Opposing high level characters could be made as powerful as you wanted. Drow seemed to get this treatment all too often.
2) An assortment of high HD or abusable monsters, many of which can be seen being abused in the published module 'Axe of the Dwarven Lords'. (The 1st edition versions were often more abusable). One trick was to look for things that ignored AC or had attacks that didn't offer saves or had attacks for which level wasn't a defense. The 1e Korred was a particularly abusable for example because its laughter attack actually worked best against HIGH charisma. Off the top of my head that list would be things like: max-headed hydras of all classes, larger giant races, huge ancient dragons, beholders, thessalhydra, largest size remorhaz, grey and death slaad, pit fiends, shambling mound, arcanodaemon, vampires with class levels, liches, golems, black pudding, crimson death, largest size barghest, rakshasa lord. Mephits could be surprisingly useful as mooks as many had attacks that did damage even if the save was passed or could use autohit spells like magic missile. And they flied, etc.
3) Take advantage of typos: The best example of this would be 82 HD Jann lords.
4) Make stuff up - Gygax seemed to go with this the most when challenging characters above 10th level, and many DMs followed suit. Doubling or tripling the HD of ordinary monsters made legendary versions of the same and had some justification from the text (Talos, for examples). New monsters with extraordinary abilities could always be made up - demiliches and giant ape gods for example.
The Shaman
First Post
When I was DMing 1e AD&D, I used combinations of monsters working together (the balor rides an ancient red dragon . . .), I changed the environment where the adventurers took place (. . . and you're battling them at 10,000 feet altitude . . . ), and I used non-player character opponents more powerful than the adventurers (. . . over the flying castle of an evil archmage).
Remember, a group of adventurers uses its combined skills and abilities to defeat more powerful foes; there's no reason monsters can't do the same.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
My Viking hat just went on...
How about a multi-headed hydra, where each head is (or at least functions as) a different class at level equal to the hydra's HD. 'Course, the Paladin head and the Assassin head would be constantly biting each other off and regrowing; but think of the potential!
Put it in a position where the PCs can't get at its body and you've got hours of fun...
Lanefan
Well, it was the highest level anyone of us ever reached in 1e/2e
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Throughout the books there are instances of attack spells simply not working without the need for any obvious counterspell. That MIGHT be explained by everyone simply not vocalizing or gesturing their counterspells, but there are definately places where they flat-out miss.
But you're totally right: trying to predict how anything in the HP universe works is pretty futile. Everything got rewritten each book to cater to the plot.
Orius
Unrepentant DM Supremacist
Retirement.
See, once again D&D is going down the anime/video game path!
I think it's really a difference between European and Asian folklore and fantasy. European = grim & gritty; Asian = high powered, high magic.
Although really with D&D, a lot of it is that AD&D largely slowed down past level 10, even though the xp tables just kept going up. With the development of 3e, a bit more attention was given to the levels from 10-20, but not a lot at first. I mean the original 3.0 MM kind of tapered off in monsters over CR 10. Some of this got fixed a bit in 3.5 and 4e certainly seems to have payed more attention to the full level range, but I the game is different when you've got 10 levels and retirement, 20 levels and optional epic, or 30 levels with three different teirs of play.
That really isn't an accurate generalization. Actual European folklore is completely loaded with people performing all kinds of over-the-top feats and unbelievable situations. Grim & gritty, with all of its implications of realism, isn't really an applicable term for old folktales and myths. I think someone would be hard-pressed to demonstrate a noticeable difference between old European myths and legends and Asian ones (with the exception that Indian Mythology is gloriously insane and over-the-top).
Any description that European folklore is grim and gritty has to contend with old tales where an old grandmother can decapitate someone with a backhand, an Irish hero can take out an army by tossing stones at them, and Hercules holding the heavens on his shoulders for a few hours.
It would be more fair to say that the generalization would only be true for trends in modern fantasy (within the last 50 years, if that). Even then, it is only a rough generalization with many, many exceptions.
There is also the point that Asian fantasy and folklore is just as legitimate a source of inspiration as anything else. Personally I embrace that path and prefer it over stereotypical Conan-style grim and gritty.
Hussar
Legend
The only thing I could really add to SkyOdin's points is that I've done the "grim and gritty" style of campaign TO DEATH. I've been gaming as long as anyone else, and I'm pretty much done with the stock 20th century fantasy thing. I barely read fantasy anymore for exactly the same reason. Terry Brooks or other authors of that style, which lean very heavily on Tolkien style fantasy, has been beaten into the ground for me.
I want something new. And, yes, drawing a bit on the chop socky wire-fu stuff is one way to go. Drawing on older mythology is another. Painting all that with the "anime" brush seems too glib for me. It's ignoring a huge treasure trove of inspiration for elements that haven't been hashed, rehashed and rehashed yet again over the past forty years.
Heck, I want heroes like you seen in Michael Moorcock's books for a change. At least it's different.
I want something new. And, yes, drawing a bit on the chop socky wire-fu stuff is one way to go. Drawing on older mythology is another. Painting all that with the "anime" brush seems too glib for me. It's ignoring a huge treasure trove of inspiration for elements that haven't been hashed, rehashed and rehashed yet again over the past forty years.
Heck, I want heroes like you seen in Michael Moorcock's books for a change. At least it's different.
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