Tropes that need to die

(again...if queen of the demonweb pits is what you'd expect from a high levle adventure and it is for 10 to 14th level, what the hell were you supposed to be doing at 18th level? You were killing goddess/demon lords 5-8 levels ago...)

Let's put this in context. You were going through an adventure designed for 10th to 14th level that culminated in a fight against a fairly weak demon lord/goddess with an excellent AC but really weak hit points. Most of the challenges in that module weren't all that powerful and not necessarily what you'd expect taking on a more power demon lord like Orcus or Demogorgon.
 

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I'm with Lanefan....

For 3e, by 8th level I'd say, an all-wizard party can handle anything you might typically find in an adventure (Only thing I can think of screwing them over would be a total anti-magic zone over the ENTIRE adventure).

[snip]

Or just one REALLY nasty room. One worthy of Tomb of Horrors.
 

Actually, I do agree with Lanefan. I'm just not sure how to implement the idea that your character goes from Competent Guy with a Lumpy Metal Thing to Legendary Guy! :)

Or, at least I'm not sure how to do it without adding something like 4e powers. In 1e and 2e, the difference between a 1st level fighter and a 10th level fighter was basically hit points. Being able to take bigger hits is a good start for a legendary warrior, but, it's a bit thin IMO. I want some ZAP! POW! KAFWING!

The 3e Book of 9 Swords went too far, again IMO. Too many special effects. There were abilities that had your fighter bursting into flames, running down field, leaving a wall of fire behind you. Yeah, very cool, but a bit over the top for what I wanted. Some of the schools were less flashy, but, it still was a difficult line to walk.

Honestly, from what I've seen, 4e does a nice job here, at least at heroic levels. The fighters and fighter types don't get a lot of Special Effects happy abilities. Most of them are explainable (or at least close to explainable if you don't look too closely and perhaps cross your eyes) most of the time.

Granted, I haven't played 4e above heroic and honestly, we haven't played that much 4e at all, so I could be way off base. I'm just going by my impressions.
 


Let's put this in context. You were going through an adventure designed for 10th to 14th level that culminated in a fight against a fairly weak demon lord/goddess with an excellent AC but really weak hit points. Most of the challenges in that module weren't all that powerful and not necessarily what you'd expect taking on a more power demon lord like Orcus or Demogorgon.

Yet the GDQ series is much more highly regarded than the other high level 1e adventure I can think (one that actually did involve Orcus) - the H-series, bloodstone pass.

If given a poll, i wouldn't be surprised to see Queen of demonweb pits outpoll the bloodstone wars in erms of what an iconic high level adventure should resemble.
 

Actually, I do agree with Lanefan. I'm just not sure how to implement the idea that your character goes from Competent Guy with a Lumpy Metal Thing to Legendary Guy! :)

Or, at least I'm not sure how to do it without adding something like 4e powers. In 1e and 2e, the difference between a 1st level fighter and a 10th level fighter was basically hit points. Being able to take bigger hits is a good start for a legendary warrior, but, it's a bit thin IMO. I want some ZAP! POW! KAFWING!

Note also; massively better saves, one of very few classes that could attack more than 1/round, most monsters have lower hit points, not noticeably outclassed in NWPs gained, etc.

The 3e Book of 9 Swords went too far, again IMO. Too many special effects. There were abilities that had your fighter bursting into flames, running down field, leaving a wall of fire behind you. Yeah, very cool, but a bit over the top for what I wanted. Some of the schools were less flashy, but, it still was a difficult line to walk..

Problem is, if you want fighters that contribute at high level, they need to be doing some amazing stuff. On bursting into flames, have you ever read the Ulster saga, and seen Cuchullain? Being thrown into a cauldron of water and bursting it when the water boils away, because his rage is so hot.
 

Here's one: the big dumb warrior who's only good for his fighting and physical skills.

I disagree. I believe what needs to die is that the fighter or barbarian must be the big dumb warrior rather than that the fighter can be. Big dumb warriors can be fun to play.

What I am saying is that Yes, magic is powerful. But that's the way I LIKE it in my games. IMHO YMMV TT&LNI. But even if magic IS powerful, it does have limitations. It is up to the DM to enforce those limitations. If they don't, then characters using magic can run amuck.

The trouble is it's a lot more than "enforce those limitations" that's needed in 3.X (AD&D it's not so clear). What's needed is to impose further limits like anti-magic fields.

If a DM wanted to, he could really screwover the spell casters.

If a DM wants he can screw over any character in the game, no questions asked. That you actually need to do so for balance and fairness is evidence that the game was badly designed.

But at the same time the players shouldn't assume that they will always have all the time and money and opportunity to do what they plan. And If a DM lets them do that, then he is asking for trouble.

A wand of Cure Light Wounds takes 1 day and 375gp to make, and changes campaigns. You seem to be indicating that a DM who ever gives the PCs a day to rest and repair or gives them enough money to be able to buy non-magical plate armour is asking for trouble. At that point it's a system failing. Now me, I don't see anything wrong with the odd week or month off to help prevent PTSD in the characters. (There isn't much time when the rubber meets the road, granted. But there is time between apocalyptic threats).

Sorry, but no they won't.

Most spells in 3e have an effective casting time of 0, in that the casting both starts and resolves on the caster's initiative with extremely limited opportunity to interrupt.

By that argument full round attacks take no time at all either. You're confusing the map with the territory here. Spells in 3e normally have a casting time of 1 standard action. If we make it 10 standard actions (5 would do) then things get interesting. The wizard can have all except one standard action of the casting of one spell performed, and gets this spell in the opening round to set the battle. And after that it's cold steel that controls the outcome of the fight (give or take people taken down by the wizard). Yet this way wizard spells can still be extremely powerful (as e.g. MoxieFu wants) without making the fighters irrelevant.

Actually, I do agree with Lanefan. I'm just not sure how to implement the idea that your character goes from Competent Guy with a Lumpy Metal Thing to Legendary Guy! :)

4e Essentials Knight and Slayer seem to keep up without being more than guys with lumpy metal things.

The 3e Book of 9 Swords went too far, again IMO. Too many special effects. There were abilities that had your fighter bursting into flames, running down field, leaving a wall of fire behind you. Yeah, very cool, but a bit over the top for what I wanted. Some of the schools were less flashy, but, it still was a difficult line to walk.

IIRC, a warblade with Tiger Claw, Iron Heart, and White Raven schools would be fine (if you took the pogo stick away from Tiger Claw). Most of the absurd schools were the property of the Swordsage - and part of his shtick was that sort of nonsense. (The other absurd school was, of course, the Crusader's "I'm a paladin who actually works" Devoted Spirit school).

Honestly, from what I've seen, 4e does a nice job here, at least at heroic levels. The fighters and fighter types don't get a lot of Special Effects happy abilities. Most of them are explainable (or at least close to explainable if you don't look too closely and perhaps cross your eyes) most of the time.

The bad one here is Come And Get It. Which is always brought up and for a reason... But I seriously see no reason why you can't port the Essentials fighter backward.
 

Yet the GDQ series is much more highly regarded than the other high level 1e adventure I can think (one that actually did involve Orcus) - the H-series, bloodstone pass.

If given a poll, i wouldn't be surprised to see Queen of demonweb pits outpoll the bloodstone wars in erms of what an iconic high level adventure should resemble.

And the point of that is? Q1 wasn't designed for 18th level characters, probably rates higher than one that was, and we're to infer what from that exactly? That TSR didn't think the game was intended to be played at 18th level? That's a bit of a stretch.

Q1 is simply the culmination of a particular plot line with a fight against a weak goddess. That part of the module was not really a big deal. What people found cool were two things - open-ended worlds that could be reached off the Demonweb's highest level, and rules for adventuring in another hostile plane. Certainly the latter could be put into service for high level adventuring by any DM in their own campaign where planar travel is likely to be more common (and thanks to high level spells like astral projection, under the control of the PCs).
 

For 1e they are not necessarily true at all. A band of 10th-level Fighters in 1e, assuming they each have an enchanted weapon (a reasonable assumption), could do very well.


Lanefan

Actually, they need the whole enchilada of magical items; Ring of protection, magic armor and magic shields as well as magic weapons, otherwise the first monster that can do status effects will destroy them. Moreover they need magic bows otherwise anything that flies and has a ranged attack will kite them to death. At that level, the utility of a fighter in AD&D only depends on his magical gear.

And they still can't heal.
 

Actually, they need the whole enchilada of magical items; Ring of protection, magic armor and magic shields as well as magic weapons, otherwise the first monster that can do status effects will destroy them. Moreover they need magic bows otherwise anything that flies and has a ranged attack will kite them to death. At that level, the utility of a fighter in AD&D only depends on his magical gear.

And they still can't heal.

Not really true in 1e. Magic armor is nice, but non-magical armor plus a good Dex can get them into the first steps of negative ACs already. Plus, once you've got magic armor, the ring of protection no longer helps your AC anyway. While still useful for saves, fighter saves really aren't bad at that level. A magic bow would also be nice for the very few flying creatures that need magic weapons to damage, but few of them really have ranged attacks that can pelt the fighters all day. And then, all they have to do is take off 50-75% of the creature's hit points to ground it, letting them bring magic melee weapons to bear.

While it's true that fighters are more gear-oriented than wizards, let's not overstate the dependence.
 

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