Tropes that need to die

[Harlekin]

Not really true in 1e. Magic armor is nice, but non-magical armor plus a good Dex can get them into the first steps of negative ACs already. Plus, once you've got magic armor, the ring of protection no longer helps your AC anyway. While still useful for saves, fighter saves really aren't bad at that level. A magic bow would also be nice for the very few flying creatures that need magic weapons to damage, but few of them really have ranged attacks that can pelt the fighters all day. And then, all they have to do is take off 50-75% of the creature's hit points to ground it, letting them bring magic melee weapons to bear.

While it's true that fighters are more gear-oriented than wizards, let's not overstate the dependence.

Not in my experience. At 10 HD, monsters have a THACO of ~10, so if you don't have an AC of at least -5, you get hit a lot. With no cleric to heal you, that is not good.

And IIRC, fighter saves are ~10 as well giving you a 50-50 chance on every effect you run into, again with no neutralize poison, remove curse et al. coming to the rescue. So good saves are a must.

If you play with the numbers, you can actually see that for a fighter after level 9 a +1 sword and a +1 RoP are better than gaining a level. High level fighters are their gear.

 

[Lanefan]

And the point of that is? Q1 wasn't designed for 18th level characters, probably rates higher than one that was, and we're to infer what from that exactly? That TSR didn't think the game was intended to be played at 18th level? That's a bit of a stretch.

I'm not so sure it's that much of a stretch at all.

Sure, in original design EGG et al might have envisioned the game going into the level-20's and beyond, but going by how little material was subsequently put out for levels 16+ I'd say TSR quickly learned the same thing many of us did: the system kinda broke down* once party levels hit the low teens.

* - some were able to fix it with severe house-ruling.

Not in my experience. At 10 HD, monsters have a THACO of ~10, so if you don't have an AC of at least -5, you get hit a lot. With no cleric to heal you, that is not good.

And IIRC, fighter saves are ~10 as well giving you a 50-50 chance on every effect you run into, again with no neutralize poison, remove curse et al. coming to the rescue. So good saves are a must.

If you play with the numbers, you can actually see that for a fighter after level 9 a +1 sword and a +1 RoP are better than gaining a level. High level fighters are their gear.

All this points out is that the Fighter, much like the opposition, is designed (intentionally or not) to be offense first and defense second. Nice side effect: no combat grind.

Also, keep in mind when discussing 1e Fighters that weapon spec. in UA made a big difference for them.

Lanefan

 

[billd91]

I'm not so sure it's that much of a stretch at all.

Sure, in original design EGG et al might have envisioned the game going into the level-20's and beyond, but going by how little material was subsequently put out for levels 16+ I'd say TSR quickly learned the same thing many of us did: the system kinda broke down* once party levels hit the low teens.

* - some were able to fix it with severe house-ruling.

I do think it's a stretch to look at the history of published high level adventures and trying to infer that TSR didn't envision people actually playing at that level. Frankly, I would expect it to be harder to write a high-level module for general customers to use in any old campaign than lower level modules. While there was less variation in the build of characters and their abilities, you still have to deal with all of the other things you can expect many high level adventurers to be doing - running castles, administering to their religion's worshippers, and so on.

I ultimately think that the history of high level modules suggests that TSR recognized at least one thing - that the market for high level adventures is smaller than for lower level adventures. Exactly why they recognized that is something only they can answer, but I seriously doubt it was because they recognized a serious flaw in the high level rules. If they did back in the 1e days, you'd figure they would have taken steps to address that back in 2e, but they didn't in any significant way. In fact, when the DM's Options stuff started coming out, there was one specifically on running high level campaigns. I think that's a recognition that the game is different, more complex, not to everyone's tastes, not that it's flawed.

 

[Hussar]

Note also; massively better saves, one of very few classes that could attack more than 1/round, most monsters have lower hit points, not noticeably outclassed in NWPs gained, etc.



/snip

Sort of. Yes, they gain an extra attack every other round at 7th level, and finally get a second attack every round at what, 14th? Lanefan is right though, the UA specialization rules make an ENORMOUS difference for fighters. Which is why 2e fighters are considerably more powerful than 1e - specs are built right into the rules, and two weapon fighting is head and shoulders better than any other choice in 2e.

But, let's compare a bit.

1st level fighter and 1st level caster. The fighter's doing pretty good here. Good staying power, decent defenses, and the caster basically has so few spells (or only 1) that he's pretty far behind.

5th level fighter and 5th level caster. The casters are now throwing fireballs, flying, turning invisible, creating loaves and fishes, curing disease, that sort of thing. The fighter has 20 more hit points and 4 points better THAC0. Oh, and his saves got better by one or two in each category.

9th level fighter and 9th level caster. The casters are now teleporting, summoning massive elementals (albeit very slowly) and raising the dead. The fighter has 1 more attack every other round, 20 more hit points and 4 points of THAC0.

14th level fighter and 14th level caster. The druid is now a unique individual - the grand druid or whatever he's called - how's that for legendary? The cleric is ressurecting people, causing earthquakes and the wizard is capable of traveling through dimensions reliably. The fighter now attacks twice per round, gets 12 more hit points and 4 points of THAC0.

Fighter is sucking hind PDQ in the legendary department.

 

[Lanefan]

But, let's compare a bit.

1st level fighter and 1st level caster. The fighter's doing pretty good here. Good staying power, decent defenses, and the caster basically has so few spells (or only 1) that he's pretty far behind.

Yet the fighter has virtually no defense against magic (pathetic saving throws) and the caster has virtually no defense against physical attack (no armour, fights like a shoe). The caster's job is to help the fighter.

5th level fighter and 5th level caster. The casters are now throwing fireballs, flying, turning invisible, creating loaves and fishes, curing disease, that sort of thing. The fighter has 20 more hit points and 4 points better THAC0. Oh, and his saves got better by one or two in each category.

You've lobbed clerics in there - they are their own breed of animal, capable of doing both spellwork and physical combat - though neither as effectively as MUs or fighters.

But to keep comparing - yes the casters are chucking lightning bolts and fireballs around, and flying, etc. - but only once a day to the exclusion of all else at that level. They can make people invisible - including our erstwhile fighter - which is beyond useful, but hardly game-breaking. And casters still can't fight, so if anything gets near them they've got a problem.

This is about the point at which the two best complement each other.

9th level fighter and 9th level caster. The casters are now teleporting, summoning massive elementals (albeit very slowly) and raising the dead. The fighter has 1 more attack every other round, 20 more hit points and 4 points of THAC0.

By now the fighter's falling behind, but has built up decent saving throws so can withstand some magic. The caster still can't take two hits from anything, so it has become the fighter's job to help the caster.

14th level fighter and 14th level caster. The druid is now a unique individual - the grand druid or whatever he's called - how's that for legendary? The cleric is ressurecting people, causing earthquakes and the wizard is capable of traveling through dimensions reliably. The fighter now attacks twice per round, gets 12 more hit points and 4 points of THAC0.

Minor quibbles: clerics get resurrection at 16th; the Grand Druid is 15th. That said, these characters are long past name level now; the fighter has a castle with lots of henches, the wizard has a tower where she does her research, the cleric has a home temple, and so forth. What are they still doing in the field?

I've never run a game at this level, but the mechanics suggest fighters are lagging - except in saving throws, at which they are the best of anyone. It's almost like their role has completely changed: using 4e terms they start out as strikers - it's up to them to give out the hurt - and slowly morph into defenders, where it's their job to protect the artillery casters.

Lanefan

 

[Hussar]

I thought clerics got 7th level spells at 13th in 1e. And Grand Druid is a Unearth Arcana thing. Going straight 1e, that 14th level druid is pretty singular. Maybe not one per world like the 15th level guy, but, certainly pretty unique. The definition was pretty vague as to how many Great Druids there were floating around.

Sure, the fighter is useful to have. I'm not saying he's useless. My point is that he's hardly legendary. He gets to be a better punching bag and that's about it. It's not about how many times per day someone can do something. It's about being able to do something at all.

There's a point to remember about saving throws though. All those rings/cloaks of protection that the party picks up are pretty much useless to the fighter, because he's going to have magic armor most likely. So, IME, it's the rogue and the wizard who get first shot at those. A single ring of protection +3 (at higher levels, this is not really unreasonable, particularly if you play modules) puts wizards well ahead on saving throws. Again, IME, it was the wizards who had the best saves in the group because they got first shot at any of the defensive magic items that they could wear - Bracers, rings/cloaks of protection, that sort of thing.

 

[WizarDru]

I ultimately think that the history of high level modules suggests that TSR recognized at least one thing - that the market for high level adventures is smaller than for lower level adventures. Exactly why they recognized that is something only they can answer, but I seriously doubt it was because they recognized a serious flaw in the high level rules.

I'm pretty sure they realized what WotC would later verify through market research: that most campaigns never run long enough to reach those high-levels. Therefore, the market for selling those materials is very small. If you have a campaign that plays once a week that runs for 6 months and then disbands for some reason (school starts, school ends, friends move, new job, etc.) then the chance of even the most successful party managing to hit the teens is unlikely.

Combine that with the factors of higher levels of lethality, overall levels of faddish attention and other issues (such as the often not-enforced requirement of having few or only ONE member of a class obtain the higher levels in the entire world) and it's not hard to see why high-level modules rarely saw print.

 

[Lanefan]

Sure, the fighter is useful to have. I'm not saying he's useless. My point is that he's hardly legendary. He gets to be a better punching bag and that's about it. It's not about how many times per day someone can do something. It's about being able to do something at all.

After which, it's about hiring the best Bard you can find to spread tales of your deeds of daring. THAT is how legends are born!

There's a point to remember about saving throws though. All those rings/cloaks of protection that the party picks up are pretty much useless to the fighter, because he's going to have magic armor most likely. So, IME, it's the rogue and the wizard who get first shot at those. A single ring of protection +3 (at higher levels, this is not really unreasonable, particularly if you play modules) puts wizards well ahead on saving throws. Again, IME, it was the wizards who had the best saves in the group because they got first shot at any of the defensive magic items that they could wear - Bracers, rings/cloaks of protection, that sort of thing.

True. It also depends on what is allowed to stack with what, not always clear in the item write-ups; so unclear in fact that 15 years ago or so I sat down and made up a chart - filling in my own ideas where there were blanks - of all the various defensive items and how they relate to each other. Two hours spent, many hours saved.

Lan-"and I still can't get experience points for killing time"-efan

 

[AllisterH]

At what level in 1e/2e did people fight balors and liches?

From everything I've read and IME, most people did this at levels 9-13.

So what non-unique opponents were you supposed to fight after level 13?

 

[Hussar]

I guess, at the end of the day, I just want warrior types that are cool. I want warriors that can run across the surface of a lake. I want warriors that can leap from the tops of bamboo trees while sword fighting. I want warriors that can balance on top of a rolling mill wheel, fighting their enemies, while the mill wheel careens down the side of a mountain.

Sure, a lot of this stuff comes from wire-fu and chop socky movies, but, a lot of it is starting to make its way into Hollywood movies as well. Legolas surfboards the shield down the stairs while putting arrows into orc eyeballs. That's COOL. Totally unrealistic. But, certainly legendary.

That's what I want from my mythic warriors. Not all the time, and I got no problems with growing into the role. This isn't about power gaming are Mary Sue style gaming in god mode. It's about being more than a bag of hit points that stands in front of the wizard while the wizard gets to do all the cool stuff.

Ok, that's hyperbole, but, you get the point. I want to be the guy who leaps off the battlements, onto the dragon and starts stabbing it repeatedly, a la the animated Beowulf movie. That was properly mythic.