Tropes that need to die

[MoxieFu]

And I'd rather model my wizard PC, at least at low level, after Merlin from the current BBC tv series. Competent at magic, but not all sorts of magic. All the magic-users in that series work with warriors, without it looking as if they're unnecessary. I'm much happier with that sort of approach than I would be with Doctor Strange.



This, of course, I entirely agree with. Allies who need help before they an contribute aren't exactly particularly helpful.

Bluenose this is not directed at you but at the text you quoted. I normally can't see that text unless someone quotes it.


If you run a wizard in a dungeon without those "meatsheilds" they will get rushed, grappled, and the pounded into chutney. Now which class needs propping up by others? If you push examples into the extreme then ALL classes will fail.

 

[AllisterH]

If you run a wizard in a dungeon without those "meatsheilds" they will get rushed, grappled, and the pounded into chutney. Now which class needs propping up by others? If you push examples into the extreme then ALL classes will fail.

This was true in 1e/2e...

But in 3.x after 8th level IME? Nah, a 4 person wizard party can handle anything equally as well if not better than a "balanced party"...and this is actually based on actual experience.

Now, druids can do this pretty much from 1st level though...

 

[Diamond Cross]

But, again, Bluenose, everything you've listed off is fantastic for an NPC. For a PC, it's useless. Oooh, I can get information from the DM. Ooo, I can raise armies of minions, which means I'm going to have to control umpteen bajillion NPC's.

Great for NPC's. Terrible for PC's.

Me, I'd rather my PC modeled after Doctor Strange, or Quick Ben from the Steven Erikson Malatzan books, or any number of other wizard types that don't sit and direct from the back.

By the way, when I mentioned Conan in a Harry Potter universe, people jumped on the idea of Conan VS Harry Potter. That wasn't what I meant at all actually. It's not that Conan could or could not defeat Harry Potter, it's that, in a Harry Potter universe, Conan is utterly useless many times.

How does Conan deal with a Dementor, for example? He can't see it or hurt it in any way. Yet the Dementor can certainly kill him.

And that's what happens in D&D. So many of the baddies can stomp all over the fighter. The fighter needs the casters just to be able to fight them. Incorporeal undead, for example. In earlier editions, if you didn't have the right plus, you died. In 3e, you still have a huge amount of problems. Particularly if the undead can fly and have fly by attack.

Never mind things like swarms. Or anything rather large with improved grab (which is pretty much everything huge it seems sometimes). Oops, no fly or free action? You die.

Teamwork is great and I'm all for teamwork. But the rules shouldn't require one class to be propped up by another one in order to get basic functionality.

So you want your character to be a mary sue with inklings of godhood?

And all classes should be the same?

 

[Plane Sailing]

How does Conan deal with a Dementor, for example? He can't see it or hurt it in any way. Yet the Dementor can certainly kill him.

Instantly made me think of the Conan story "The phoenix on the sword", which illustrates that even in the Conan stories, he sometimes needs aid from magic using friends/divine allies to overcome foes.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Can you show me on this doll where the Narrativist touched you?

Sadly, the Eric's Grandmother rule prevents me from providing a graphic......

How does Conan deal with a Dementor, for example? He can't see it or hurt it in any way. Yet the Dementor can certainly kill him.

I'm not sure; the rules of JKR's universe seem very obscure and self-contradictory to me. AFAICT, Conan could beat a dementor by thinking happy thoughts at it; i.e., by simply refusing to give in.

Rather like Happy in the wardrobe, which was used as the lesser example of the dementor for practicing dispelling such creatures.

I actually think Harry Potter is a poor example to use, because AFAICT the HP universe is pretty poorly thought out. Apart from the events that happen within the novels, it is difficult to say what could or could not happen.

The one thing we can say is that the Wizarding world seems to be concealed from the Muggles, and it is the Muggles who are in charge. This implies rather that the Wizarding world knows that potential Conans are out there, somewhere, ready to spank them if need be. It is only insane wizards, like Voldemort, who are willing to chance it. And even their attacks on Muggles, in the novels, were not open and obviously the results of magic. Heck, the Wizarding world devotes quite a bit of its resources in avoiding the attention of potential Conans....er, Muggles.

For all the big talk about how overwhelmingly powerful HP magic is, the reality may well be that much of it works only on other wizards.


RC

 

[Hussar]

I don't see there should be much issue with troupes. At the end of the day we see them all the time on TV and movies, and in books. It's part and parcel of modern fiction.

Getting away from the burial/cremation topic for the moment, what about the classic troupe of adventurers finding employment in taverns? I think this one works on a realistic level. Adventurers and mercenaries, especially at low levels, will hang out at taverns drinking and telling tales of their deeds. What better place to go to in order to hire someone for a quest than a tavern?

The problem with this particular trope, is that meeting the dark stranger in the Color/Animal Inn isn't so much a trope as a cliche. It's been done to death. Sure, it makes some sense, but, for some time, it was pretty much the standard and only way it seemed, that groups got together.

 

[Hussar]

So you want your character to be a mary sue with inklings of godhood?

And all classes should be the same?

Wow, is that what you took from what I wrote? I'm not even sure where to start here.

I did say that a class that needs another class just to be barely competent is poorly designed. I also did say that groups should be encouraged to work together, so classes should synergize with each other.

If that means "mary sue with inklings of godhood" to you, I have no idea how to respond to that.

See, as was said, a 10th level party of all clerics (or possibly 3 clerics and a druid) is probably the strongest mechanical party you can make. Swap out a cleric for a wizard and it's still pretty much going to stomp on anything.

A 10th level party of all fighters is monster kibble.

If you don't see a problem with this, then, fine. No worries. I do think this is an issue. You could go two ways with it. Drop down the power of the casters and the monsters so that the mundane classes can catch up. No more size bonuses to grapple, or do away with grapple entirely, no more "needs +X to fight" - 3e did do this to some degree, drastically reduce the number of flying creatures as well as creatures with spell like abilities.

Essentially, turn every monster into a hill giant.

Or, you could go the other way. Go with the idea that this is fantasy and let the "mundane" classes by properly mythic. A 10th level fighter isn't just a really good guy with a sword, he's superhuman. He can do all those mythic things that those guys do - like resist magic that no one else can resist, hold his breath longer than anyone else, be superhumanly strong, take punishment and keep on going with no long term debilitation - that sort of thing.

Personally, I like the idea of the mundane classes being mythic. Legendary warriors shouldn't be regular guys with a sword, IMO. They should be, well, legendary.

 

[Lanefan]

See, as was said, a 10th level party of all clerics (or possibly 3 clerics and a druid) is probably the strongest mechanical party you can make. Swap out a cleric for a wizard and it's still pretty much going to stomp on anything.

A 10th level party of all fighters is monster kibble.

Note for reference that the above are somewhat edition-dependent statements.

For 3e they are true.

For 1e they are not necessarily true at all. A band of 10th-level Fighters in 1e, assuming they each have an enchanted weapon (a reasonable assumption), could do very well.

For 4e I don't know.

Personally, I like the idea of the mundane classes being mythic. Legendary warriors shouldn't be regular guys with a sword, IMO. They should be, well, legendary.

Why can't they start out as mundane, progress through fantastic, and eventually arrive at legendary - all through deeds done and honours well earned?

Lanefan

 

[Hussar]

Note for reference that the above are somewhat edition-dependent statements.

For 3e they are true.

For 1e they are not necessarily true at all. A band of 10th-level Fighters in 1e, assuming they each have an enchanted weapon (a reasonable assumption), could do very well.

Well, until they take any damage. Given the healing rates in 1e, Fighters are absolutely dependent on clerics to function for any length of time.

For 4e I don't know.
Why can't they start out as mundane, progress through fantastic, and eventually arrive at legendary - all through deeds done and honours well earned?

Lanefan

How long though? By 5th level, the wizard is flying and throwing fireballs. The cleric is getting into some serious magic power as well. By 6th the druid is shapechanging.

Meanwhile, the 6th level fighter is still getting his one attack per round in 1e. The one thing that actually makes the fighter superhuman - percentile strength - he gets at 1st level, if at all.

 

[AllisterH]

I'm with Lanefan....

For 3e, by 8th level I'd say, an all-wizard party can handle anything you might typically find in an adventure (Only thing I can think of screwing them over would be a total anti-magic zone over the ENTIRE adventure).

Druids and clerics can do this by 6th...

This though isn't true in 1e/2e, Remember, wizards had more or less totally random method of both spell and item acquisition (the actual spell and magic item creation rules were very stringent).

Clerics and druids simply didn't get enough good combat spells back then either so that they could replace a fighter.

Sure, by 18th level, an all-wizard party could handle anything in 1e/2e but again, I might add that I don't think 18th level was ever intended to be used in an actual game

(again...if queen of the demonweb pits is what you'd expect from a high levle adventure and it is for 10 to 14th level, what the hell were you supposed to be doing at 18th level? You were killing goddess/demon lords 5-8 levels ago...)