Tropes that need to die

but seriously, any society that is as educated and egalitarian as amazons are put forth to be, is not going to have a raging sexist streak.

That's probably because the Amazons were created by a society that had a huge raging sexist streak.

Royalty has a problem with religion in a Christian dominated Medieval Europe. In the average DnD society the same tension is much less likely where one annoying church can just be replaced with another one that worships a more accomidating deity.

How the heck is priest vs. king restricted to Christian Europe? This is a pretty old trope (though I just blew an hour searching for it on TVTropes and came up empty handed, I'm sure someone will point it out though), going back a very long way, as priests and kings were both major authority figures in society. Unless you had priest-kings, and even then you'd likely get courtly intrigue. A Christian setting is no more or less likely to have this conflict than any other setting; it's conceivable that the king might be very devout and trust the priest in all things.
 

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2. The Court Wizard - Look at the wizard spell list, now look at the cleric spell list. Hmmm, throwing Fireballs and Lightning Bolts or Heal spells and Neutralize Poison. I know as a powerful king I want both guys working for me, but in reality I want the court cleric at my side 24/7. He can check my food for poison, remove any pesky diseases, and in the event of an attack heal me while my guards kill the assassin(s). But because of Merlin we have court wizards and the nearest cleric who can save the kings life is down the street in the cathedral. Well no more.
You know I'm pretty sure there's more to the wizard's spell list than Fireball and Lightening Bolt.

Offhand, Contact Other Plane seems like it might be useful in a court setting, along with the various glyph and sigil trap spells.
 

How is Conan not fantastic? :confused:

I suppose that depends upon what you mean by "fantastic".

I also suppose that depends upon what you mean by "Conan". :lol: When I say "Conan", I refer to nothing apart from the stories written by Robert E. Howard....as written by Robert E. Howard (as opposed to pastiches and poor, but perhaps well-meaning, edits after his death).

DOn't bring up LotR. That's some kind of tabletop fallacy at this point. There was a full webcomic designed to mock the idea of a LotR tabletop game. LotR has never been a tabletop game, it's never been a good idea for a tabletop game, it never will be.

Ah. I am sure I could do a webcomic that makes the same mockery of anything turned directly into an rpg. If that makes the ideas, settings, etc. (i.e., everything but that specific plotline) unusable as fodder for a rpg, I guess we got nothing.

That's it folks. Roll 'em up! No more rpgs! They are all a tabletop fallacy at this point!

:lol:

And yes, Conan or Fafrd, I remember those utterly mundane and non-fantastic characters, like the time Conan was dominated and controlled every time he fought a wizard, or the time he was stabbed and then bled out and died.

And yes, ProfessorCirno or Raven Crowking, I remember those utterly mundane and non-fantastic characters, like the time Raven Crowking was dominated and controlled every time he fought a wizard, or the time he was stabbed and then bled out and died.

But....since those things never happened.....ProfessorCirno and Raven Crowking must be fantastic and/or magical! (Well, I have been told that I was, but I don't think it was in the context you mean. ;) :lol: )

Oh, wait, that isn't really the definition of mundane, or non-fantastic, is it?

In this particular parlance, we are talking about "non-magical". You are implying that it takes some form of magic to resist magical influence, and that it takes some form of magic to engage in combat...to be wounded in combat, say...and not only survive, but triumph.

Now, I can't talk about what might be needed to resist magical influences, as I haven't encountered anything that I would claim to be so in the real world. However, either you are not a student of history, or you must believe that there have been many, many fantastic and/or magical people throughout human history. Or maybe you just want to make your point, and don't care about its accuracy.

How the heck is priest vs. king restricted to Christian Europe?

It isn't.



RC
 



1. Cemeteries - In the average fantasy world there are dozens of ways that corpses can come back to life, reanimate, or shed their body to become evil spirits that then prey on the living. This does not even take onto the various evil experiments performed by mad wizards.

So why are there cemeteries?

In several nations of Sartha, and a good many more that are now extinct, there are cemetaries precisely so that corpses can be stockpiled, can come back to life, will be handy to reinanimate, and will attract evil spirits. These nations view cemetaries as batteries or power plants. They are extraordinarily useful.

In other nations of Sartha, Cemetaries are places where you put the dead in one place so that you can consecrate them all at once, where you can be sure that someone has cast 'lay to rest' on the bodies, where you can ring the whole area in protective anti-necromantic wards so that anything that does wake up stays where it is at, and so forth. Quite often, the cultures of this later sort have the problem that the cemetary used to belong to a culture of the former sort, which can result in long term problems of disposing and putting down those dead that weren't happily buried. Undertaker is a highly skilled professional trade on Sartha, and there are gods that are more or less the 'god of proper burial'. I mean, you don't think that bad guys are the only ones with death gods do you?

In other nations of Sartha, you bury your loved ones in a graveyard so you can go talk to them (and occasionally even see them) on a semi-regular basis. You go build a nice bonfire in the graveyard, roast some harvest veggies and a bit of some sacred animal, maybe throw a bit of tobacco on the fire, and wait for grandma to show up. If grandma happened to get scattered to the four winds, guess what, your family is probably the only one on the block that is out of luck - no ancesteral wisdom and supernatural insight over the coming year for you.

There are actually places on my world where a consecrated cemetary has been built on top of a descrecated one and acts more or less as a lid. And there places in the world where multiple cultures exist simultaneously and are more or less in tension with each others desires.

The truth of the matter is that while most cemetaries have an undead problem of some sort, most undead aren't in cemetaries. Cemetaries have an undead problem on the basis of sheer quantity. You bury 400,000 people in one spot, you are bound to have a few mistakes. But the percentage of bodies that end up as undead in a cemetary is very small compared to the percentage of bodies that end up as undead outside the cemetary. Most undead are actually unburied people who died lonely horrifying deaths in out of the way places. There is considerable utility in finding these bodies and buring them in an actual cemetary.

One thing you generally certainly don't want to do is start spreading necomantic residue all over your community. Burning a body doesn't destroy it - it just disperses it. This is especially true if the body isn't burned in a consecrated fire as part of a internment ritual. Think of a body that used to contain a spirit as being something like low level radioactive waste. The goal is to contain it and neutralize it. Sure, if you do it wrong, burying all that waste in one location creates a heck of a toxic cesspool, but even then it beats the alternative of spreading it around. Dilution is not the solution to polution. What you end up doing there if you scatter ashes is creating nasty ash wraiths, sentient curses, widespread desecrated ground (which in turn tends to turn into undead anything buried there), haunts that occur over wide areas, possessing ghosts, hungry ghosts, and alot of things far worse than a haunted graveyard.

This is a seaside community and they have one stone pier jutting out into the bay used for funerals. The bodies of dead townspeople are wrapped in cloth, piled with wood, and burned in a pyre the day of the their or the immediate following day. The ashes are then allowed to blow into the sea.

This sounds pretty good provided that they have some deities on board with the ritual to catch the souls when they get thrown into the sea and some clerics around to make sure they get the message. Otherwise, what you just did is create one heck of a haunted harbor. On the other hand, that might actually be the goal. Them northmen are likely to have a heck of a time ambushing you in your bed in the middle of the night if they try landing quietly in the harbor. Your ancestors aren't likely to take that 'lying down'.

No dead bodies left around means less chance of the dead coming back.

Not really. The dead come back on their own when they are unhappy and unwilling or unable to undertake the difficult journey into the afterlife. Not having a body just means that they've lost a point of attachment and are more likely to be confused and angry. The corporeal undead are generally not a problem. An outbreak of rage zombies is troublesome, but not something that the town watch backed up by a few low level clerics can't handle. It's the incorporeal ones that tend to be the real problem. Exorcisms are difficult, and even compotent soldiers tend to be useless against even fairly minor spirits.

Really the idea of burying bodies when it takes a low level spell to animate them just sounds silly when you think of it.

Low to mid-level necromancers aren't really a big problem either. They have a hard time hiding and being mortal they can always be drugged, grappled, and/or killed in their sleep. You average town watch will have very effective albiet quite brutal methods for dealing with suspected spellcasters. Witches and wizards represent pretty ordinary problems. It's not like you are going to cast something obvious like Invisibility and have everyone go into a panic. Zombies are scary, but no scarier to a Sarthan than having a blowout on the interstate is to someone from our world, and animate dead is unlikely to get you very far. Body disposal represents the usual hazards, but if you know ahead of time what you are dealing with that simplifies the problem.
 
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How the heck is priest vs. king restricted to Christian Europe? This is a pretty old trope (though I just blew an hour searching for it on TVTropes and came up empty handed, I'm sure someone will point it out though), going back a very long way, as priests and kings were both major authority figures in society. Unless you had priest-kings, and even then you'd likely get courtly intrigue. A Christian setting is no more or less likely to have this conflict than any other setting; it's conceivable that the king might be very devout and trust the priest in all things.

It isn't limited to it, per se, but it's an example where there was often a political dispute between one power and another, both of which wanted to wield ultimate authority. In medieval Christian Europe, there was just the one church hierarchy so kings didn't have an alternative to bring in as a substitute if they didn't see eye to eye. In a pantheist society like a lot of D&D campaigns, if the king isn't getting along with a religious hierarchy or two, there may yet be another one more willing to operate as the main religious advisor. Kings can basically shop around to find something with a more similar outlook or something more compliant.
 

1. Cemeteries

Because you might want them back. And holy ground means that the worst won't happen accidently.

2. The Court Wizard

I'm a fan of bards for Court Wizard anyway. The job of court wizard is king's advisor on the arcane - and politician. Political skill matters more than raw power.

3. The Party A$

I've just (as DM) warned mine that unless he shapes up the PCs may kick him out when they make it back to civilisation.

4. Robe and Wizard Hat.

Oh, I don't know. Several of my characters like that trope and wearing rogue and hat. None of them wizards, oddly enough...

The funny thing is that even when you consider the full varieties that a fantasy world allows it still does make the most sense that most Kings are fighters.

Huh? Why? A king's most important abilities are Will save, Sense Motive, and Diplomacy. I.e. political skill and the ability to gather people behind him (and in front of him). Aristocrat (3e), Marshal, Bard, Warlord (4e), Cleric, and even arguably Paladin are all better choices. If the king needs to draw his sword something's gone badly wrong.

Character Trope - The Uncompromising Gish

As someone who likes Bards and finds them pretty powerful - I see no reason you need to be more powerful than a Battle Sorceror.

The trope I want to die... the adventurer. How many people walk around "looking for adventure", risking their life all the time to find money so they can buy a shinier sword so they can kill more things to get more money to buy shinier other things?

It tends to lead to short lives. And joining mercenary companies.

why can't a game focus on making characters have some kind of purpose, even if it's just being famous or accumulating wealth in an RP sense?

Mine do.

Yeah, 'cause a fantasy game shouldn't be able to emulate, say, Peregrin Took, or Conan, or Fafrd. That's just crazy talk to think that. Sheesh!

Pippin starts off at level 1. Conan and Fafrd are from what I recall significantly less realistic than most Holywood blockbuster action heroes (others have given specifics). By attempting to tie them down to realism, you ensure that your fantasy game can't emulate either of them. (Or was this your whole point?)
 


So why are there cemeteries? I am in the process of creating a small town as a campaign starting point and one item I added was the pier of mourning. This is a seaside community and they have one stone pier jutting out into the bay used for funerals. The bodies of dead townspeople are wrapped in cloth, piled with wood, and burned in a pyre the day of the their or the immediate following day. The ashes are then allowed to blow into the sea. No dead bodies left around means less chance of the dead coming back. Really the idea of burying bodies when it takes a low level spell to animate them just sounds silly when you think of it.

Because then you get fiery undead and potentially incorporeal ones which the locals can't hope to deal with. At least a skeleton or zombie can be put down by the village or town militia.
 
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