Troubles with players.

[UngeheuerLich]

1. don´t make the characters disappear... a trick i used in non mini combat game (3.x) i have extra enemies for characters not there... and also for animal companions to nerf the druid a bit...

what it brings to the session:
a) if the combat is fine, when the main party has finished the combat, the other characters have finished too
b) if it is too hard or to easy, you can knock out a character whose player is not there (of course you roll death saves) or their enemies and let the character fight one of the other enemies.
c) it makes sense in game if your players are willing to accept a bit DM fiat

You don´t have to TPK anyone at a rest... but even when a single monster attacks at mid rest, the party doesn´t recharge more than after a short rest... and if you have that single monster flee after taking a good shot at the pc´s maybe the pc´s get on their feet and search a safer place to rest...

... a TPK to show who is the boss is the wrong way... but maybe show them how unfun it can be when the game turns DM vs Players...

 

[Seirun]

I'm not sure, if I get this right. Don't send monsters to prevent them from resting.

Put pressure on them. The virgin will be sacrificed in three days. House Lyrandar need the package before Monday. The villain is on the run, and if they heros rest, he will be in Thay before they are ready again.

You can interrupt the rest with encounters, but then do it in the proper old fashion: Make a random encounter table.

They ignore any time limit I use. A merchant gave them a quest to bring him a crystal ball from near dungeon (time limit was three days, then he leaves for another city). They didn't care about the merchant leaving town, after an encounter on their way to the dungeon they took an extended rest. And when I reminded them that there is a time limit, the said like "Who cares, we need our daily powers. And we can always catch him later"...

Can the PC handle the interrupted rest? One PC is on watch, the rest is sleeping... It seems to me like a sure way to kill them...

 

[Ryujin]

Hi there, I have some problems with ma players and I'd like your help.

1. Resting. My party takes extended rest almost after every encounter. They even wanted to stash magic items with daily powers to one character a let only that one take the extended rest...

Interrupt rests. Resting in the room next to the next encounter means that the enemy likely heard them coming. Let them get 4 minutes and 50 seconds into a long rest, then thwack 'em.

Make the magic item+character a gestalt. If BOTH don't rest, then the item can't be used by that character. After all, the character can only use X items per day AND the item has a daily power.

2. Whenever they are going somewhere, they are going in "total defense". I don't know if rules allow it - it's listed as "action in combat", but so is administering a potion...

Defending against what? If they're surprised, then they're facing the wrong way when they get attacked. You can't defend against what you haven't seen yet.You could also tell them that they "started combat" a round earlier and delayed so that they could act together, so the opponents now all get a turn.

3. Exploiting Astral Seal - The healing effect triggers on hit, so they keep bull rushing the last enemy until everyone is healed (since bull rush deals no damage, they do it until everyone is healed). I have ruled that the healing effect triggers only on damage...

Have the opponent run away when there clearly isn't a chance of winning.

4. When a player leaves session earlier, he gives all of his magic equipment to others... I'm thinking of making magic items "soulbound" (sorry for the WoW term, but it perfectly describes my intention).

See above.

Anyone had (have) same problems? What was your solution? I know I can rule against it, but I'd like to have some sort of support (am I doing the right thing?)...

No, we tend to be fairly realistic about how we play, rather than playing rules lawyer games.

... and so it goes.

 

[Mengu]

They ignore any time limit I use. A merchant gave them a quest to bring him a crystal ball from near dungeon (time limit was three days, then he leaves for another city). They didn't care about the merchant leaving town, after an encounter on their way to the dungeon they took an extended rest. And when I reminded them that there is a time limit, the said like "Who cares, we need our daily powers. And we can always catch him later"...

Sure, they can ignore it. When they don't get the crystal ball in time, the merchant fails to see the future attack on his wagon, and dies on the first day of his travel. PC's don't get the XP for the quest completion, or any treasure they may have been promised.

There have to be consequences to failure. Not so harsh that it will halt the game, but harsh enough they won't want to fail again. Resource management is part of the game. They should learn how to do it.

Can the PC handle the interrupted rest? One PC is on watch, the rest is sleeping... It seems to me like a sure way to kill them...

Uh, the other PC's can be woken up right? Or do they go into a catatonic sleep when they rest?

 

[1of3]

They ignore any time limit I use. A merchant gave them a quest to bring him a crystal ball from near dungeon (time limit was three days, then he leaves for another city). They didn't care about the merchant leaving town, after an encounter on their way to the dungeon they took an extended rest. And when I reminded them that there is a time limit, the said like "Who cares, we need our daily powers. And we can always catch him later"...

Well, could they?

But yes, there is a more fundamental problem: Nothing was at stake. Next time they are too late, kill people. Burn the village, have the temples plundered, the villagers sold into slavery and the characters' garden gnomes maimed.

Can the PC handle the interrupted rest? One PC is on watch, the rest is sleeping... It seems to me like a sure way to kill them...

People usually wake up, when there is fight going on.

 

[BobTheNob]

To OP. You came to the forums seeking advice, which means you have concerns for the state of your game. Kudos to you for that alone.

The advice herein is sound, but at the end of the day I get the feeling that the attitude of your players is part of this. Im guessing that they have read the books back the front and know the legalities, but as players they have to understand its there part to play the games, and its the DM's to interpret the rules.

It sounds like your group has this back the front and needs to have a bit of Karmic re-alignment before anything else improves.

Also, drawing the line and getting tough doesnt mean things are not fun. Quite often you have to get tough to create fun. For instance, the issue of your players taking extended rests all the time, there would be no tenseion around when to use dailies or other precious resources, no tough choice to make and therefore no gratification in success.

(p.s. on the extended rests issue. My adventures have sanction "safety zones" where the players can take extended rests. Part of the adventure is finding these locations)

 

[Nytmare]

"Who cares, we need our daily powers. And we can always catch him later"...

This is unfortunate and I think illustrates the base problem. I'm not sure if any of you have a good grasp of where they, or their power level fit into the world.

They don't need all their dailies to win every single fight. They don't need to stockpile 3 or 4 other people's magic items to make themselves strong enough to handle things. And they aren't in a position to decide that external time limits aren't important, and can be remedied later.

It's distressing that you're not able to put them into a position where kicking back and setting up camp after every 30 second fight is easier than just solving the actual problems facing them. Windows of opportunity close, ships sail, and the world should be moving on around them, whether they want it to or not.

They're sent to recover a crystal ball, and the merchant needs it within three days. They don't get to decide when he actually needs it, that they can just find him later on when they get around to it, and that he will be willing to pay them, when they failed to get it to him on time. Give them time limits, and enforce the limits, otherwise there was no point in giving it to them in the first place.

My gut reaction is that they're not going to be interested in talking about this, and are just going to claim that you're being unfair and then gang up on you to force you to do what they want.

If, by some horrible cosmic conspiracy, I ended up having to run for a group like this, my responses would be the following.

Extended Rests Every 30 Seconds - Make the world not take extended rests every 30 seconds. Time limits expire, virgins get sacrificed, guards wander through on patrols, someone checks to see how Bob the hell hound is doing and if he needs to go out for a walk, the King asks to constabulary to please remove the adventuring party that's been camped out in front of his city for the past three months. They're crawling around the world at a snail's pace and it should bite them in the ass.

Total Defense 24/7 - Make the world respond accordingly. They're creeping around like idiots, weapons drawn and paranoid, waiting for monsters to ambush them every second of every day. Mechanically, when they get into combat, they all spend their first actions on maintaining their total defense.

Encounter Abuse - They don't have control over when encounters start and end, that's you. Monsters give up, run away, and DM's say things like "Yeah, you handily murder the rest of them."

Now You See Em... - Disappearing and reappearing PCs always bug me, even when I'm playing. When I'm running and can't play with all of my players, characters end up getting run as NPCs that get knocked unconscious instead of dying. If there are too many NPCs, we play something else. If you don't have a problem with characters just popping in and out of existence willy nilly, there shouldn't be a problem with all of their equipment popping in and out along with them.

You've ended up with a bunch of players who enjoy playing the system more than they're playing the game, and they're people I have always, always, always avoided playing with.

 

[Ryujin]

Another thought on time limits. Rather than having the employer leave, which gives them the impression that they can hunt him down for their reward, have him die if they fail. They aren't looking for a crystal ball, they're trying to find a rare item or substance that he needs in order to cure his fever. Better still, to cure his daughter's fever. If they fail, because they felt that taking a long rest every 5 minutes was more important than the quest, then they've not only failed but made an enemy.

There's also the issue that you can't just drop to the ground and go to sleep 20 minutes after you last did it. You have to wait 12 hours before you can take another extended rest (PHB pg. 263). A lot can happen in that time. Emphasize the fact that they're sitting around on their thumbs, because they just can't get to sleep. If they insist that they can actually get to sleep in that short a period let them do it, but not reacquire what they would if they had an extended rest.

If they're going to rules lawyer you, feel free to do it right back.

 

[Obryn]

@The leaving player - I just make the character disappear. It's not much RP, I know, but three of our five players sometimes have to leave a session without warning (work issues), so it's the easiest way. And before they leave (their characters disappear), they divide their items between the remaining characters. They do not give up their weapons (or amors), but the "utility" items, like amulet of protection.

Herein lies the problem. If you want the character to disappear for convenience sake, that's fine. But your players shouldn't be able to turn this convenience into a benefit, IMO.

@Resting - I know I can send harder monsters against them when they try to rest, but I don't want to kill them. Since I spent fair ammount of time preparing the adventure, I don't want to end it by killing the party.

How hard are these fights? Are you maybe sending too-tough fights against them? What's the party level? Are you using the DMG XP guidelines for encounters?

@Astral Seal: They usually cut off any escape routes the last enemy could possibly take, fighter uses his mark and tadaaa, healing fest begins. At least they usually get bored after 3-4 heals...

OK, I see the problem now. I don't know how this will work out in their favor if you're using level-appropriate foes... And so what if the Fighter marks him? More attacks = quicker death.

@Total defense - Yes, it's listed in combat actions, but I can't find a rule that says I can't use combat action outside combat. I like Obryn's "Total defense doesn't mean anything if you don't have any idea what you're defending against." I'll try to go with that.

I think there's a difference between "combat actions" and "actions you can take in combat."

For example, it's silly to argue you can't drink a potion outside of combat. That's an action that you can take in combat. On the other hand, bull-rushing, second wind, and total defense are combat-specific actions that really only have meaning in the middle of an encounter.

YMMV!

-O

 

[eriktheguy]

Yeah, the whole situation sort of sucks.
Clearly coming up with reasons and houserules and plot devices is not going to solve all your problems. It isn't these 5 issues ruining your experience, its the players' attitudes.
Lets be clear that enjoying yourself is the most important part of the game. If your players are having fun then the game is working (for them). If you can enjoy their munchkinly sessions, enjoy them and stop worrying. If you prefer a more serious, involved or mature experience...

...you could try to convince your group that they are really missing out on the fun. Try to force some role playing (skill challenges work well) or have some npcs make idle chit chat with them. If they start to get to know the world as a realistic, interactive world, maybe they won't treat it like a video game.

...they might not be interested in really playing DnD. In this case, find another group. This sucks if the group you play with is your closest friends. You could continue to DM short sessions for them occasionally while joining a mature group at your local hobby shop. Maybe your friends will notice how fun a mature game is and want to give it a shot.

... how old is your group? It might just be a matter of waiting for them to grow up, DnD just gets better with age in my experience.

...you could just run monster mashes. Put the players in an arena against a bunch of monsters and have them fight. New monsters flood into the arena as the fight progresses. A single battle in the arena could be a few encounters linked together (and through some magic they recharge encounter powers and can spend surges at set points). They fully recover after battle, eliminating astral seal and extended rest abuse. They get magic items or cash doled out between battles and gain levels as this goes on. The characters aren't in contact between battles, so they can't pool items.
If your players really don't want story or realism, don't waste time preparing it for them.