D&D 5E Troubleshooting Princes of the Apocalypse

[HobbitFan]

So I'm trying to get the new book ready to run. I like it but I'm finding there's a whole lot I have to fix.
One of the problems is how vague, undefined and unimportant the Elder Elemental eye is to the whole thing.

My question is this: Is there anything in the original Temple of Elemental Evil or the Return to the Temple of elemental Evil sequal that I might use to flesh out info on the Elder Elemental Eye?

Is there anything in the Abyssal Plague novels (and related 4E books) that might be of assistance?

Any help would be wonderful!

Thanks in advance,

HobbitFan aka Monty

 

[pukunui]

Is there anything in the Abyssal Plague novels (and related 4E books) that might be of assistance?

I haven't read the FR-specific Abyssal Plague book(s), but I did read the ones set in 4e's Nentir Vale. They *might* give you a bit of insight into Tharizdun and the madness he inflicts on his followers and such.

If you go with the Elder Elemental Eye = Tharizdun thing, there really isn't a whole lot to learn. Tharizdun is a mostly forgotten deity who has been locked away in some prison plane for all eternity. Occasionally he can get a little influence out into one world or another but so far he's never actually been able to break free. In 4e, it was Tharizdun who created the Abyss, which precipitated his incarceration at the hands of the other deities.

You might want to also take a look at WG4 - The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun. I don't know if it gives you any insight into the god's character but it's got his name in the title, so it might.

 

[HobbitFan]

Research update: I found a good post about the history of elemental Evil in D&D.
I'll include the link below for people like me frustrated with the lack of material on this in the PoTA hardback.

http://thecampaign20xx.blogspot.com/2015/01/dungeons-dragons-history-of-elemental.html

 

[Cadriel]

The Elder Elemental Eye is meant to be the catalyst of everything that happens in the campaign. It's the reason the elemental cults exist at all. I don't see how you can call it vague or unimportant, when it is literally the reason that things in the adventure are happening.

I think the Eye's role is meant to be something subtle but powerful. Aside from the elemental cults, it results in effects that show up most dramatically in the adventure in the "Wrath of the Elements" section in chapter 5. Weather and the natural world has been "off" in the whole Dessarin Valley mini-setting since before the PCs roll into Red Larch. It's a distant metaphysical force that is only manifested obliquely relative to the actual game setting. I like that idea a lot.

In the 1e version, the Elder Elemental God was a front for Tharizdun. This is presented as one of the options for running PotA in Greyhawk. Characters even at 15th level probably aren't up to confronting a deity directly, so there's not a lot of fleshing out to be done. What do you want to do with the Eye that you feel the adventure doesn't already do?

 

[HobbitFan]

I don't mean to imply that I want my players to fight the Elder Elemental Eye like a video game boss or soemthing. That's not what I'm saying.
I realize the Elder Elemental Eye is what had spoken to the Prophets and driven them to do what they do BUT we don't know what the identity or motivation of the Elder Elemental Eye in the adventure is.

Here's a thought experiment. Replace the Elder elemental Eye in the adventure with an abstracted deity representing Chaos or Evil. It wouldn't change a thing in the adventure.
If you can rip soemthing out of your adventure and replace it with something as generic as Evil or Chaos...then that's a problem.

The elder Elemental Eye is (seemingly) meaningless to the adventure and likely will be to players too. I can recall only two times the PCs might discover information about it: talking to the Dragon in Chapter 6 or talking to the Elemental Prophets when you encounter them.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

The Elder Elemental Eye seems to be based to a significant extent upon Tharizdun and the Elemental cults in previous editions. Aside from the links and information provided above, my understanding of the situation is essentially this: D&D worlds typically have a sort of thing where prayer, worship, and sacrifice increases the power of the deity so worshipped. Tharizdun was a deity devoted to the destruction of the cosmos, a theme that does not appeal to many beings in the multiverse. Madness and nihilism were also longstanding themes associated with the deity. On top of this, Tharizdun had been bound in a prison plane (and forced into eternal sleep) by a strained alliance of the other gods early in the process of creation and could only reach out to influence the multiverse through indirect means - such as dreams. So Tharizdun (and his worshippers) were forced to find ways to gain support, prayer, and sacrifices through subterfuge - both because few individuals would willingly worship such a being and because if plots to provide him with power were discovered by the other deities it would result in the rapid destruction of any devotees involved.

One of Tharizdun's plots had been to masquerade as another being - this Elder Elemental Eye (or Elder Elemental God). He had whispered through dreams to a number of elemental lords (or archomentals) that he was their father or creator and used this deception to get them to use their power for his ends. Essentially making them believe that any power they granted him served their own purposes. Tharizdun's followers set up a sort of elemental religion, with the princes of elemental evil serving as proxies both to destroy and to channel power back to Tharizdun himself.

In Princes of the Apocalypse, the true identity of the Elder Elemental Eye has been left deliberately vague but the major themes remain: A central deity devoted to madness and destruction that is secretly deceiving followers into feeding he/she/it power and following his/her/its destructive agenda. The whole "free the bound deity" thing isn't directly present, but one could easily introduce it.

 

[HobbitFan]

Thanks for the overview Shadoweller00, that was of great help.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

In the 1e version, the Elder Elemental God was a front for Tharizdun. This is presented as one of the options for running PotA in Greyhawk. Characters even at 15th level probably aren't up to confronting a deity directly, so there's not a lot of fleshing out to be done. What do you want to do with the Eye that you feel the adventure doesn't already do?

Correction here. It was not until 3e that the Elder Elemental Eye was stated to be a front for Tharizdun. Before they they may appear to have been separate beings. Because the Elder Elemental Eye becoming Tharizdun only happened in 3e that it's only being presented as an option in the Greyhawk area.

I realize the Elder Elemental Eye is what had spoken to the Prophets and driven them to do what they do BUT we don't know what the identity or motivation of the Elder Elemental Eye in the adventure is.

Here's a thought experiment. Replace the Elder elemental Eye in the adventure with an abstracted deity representing Chaos or Evil. It wouldn't change a thing in the adventure.
If you can rip soemthing out of your adventure and replace it with something as generic as Evil or Chaos...then that's a problem.

The elder Elemental Eye is (seemingly) meaningless to the adventure and likely will be to players too. I can recall only two times the PCs might discover information about it: talking to the Dragon in Chapter 6 or talking to the Elemental Prophets when you encounter them.

So what is your point. I don't get why we have to know the identity or motive of the Elder Elemental Eye.

And replacing the Elder Elemental eye with some other deity represent chaos or evil would change something. You would know what that deity is.

The players making history checks (Like at the Alter of the Elemental Eye) or finding notes (Like Marlos's journal) can let them find out more about it too.

Anyway if your the DM you can always give it an identity like Tharizdun or Ghaunadaur. Ghaunadaur is probably more appropriate for this adventure. Given that one of his tiles is "The Elder Eye" he has been stated in the past to answer prayers for worship of the Elder Elemental Eye, he is a god of madness and abominations, and he has a shrine in the Adventure inside the Fane of the Eye.

 

[Hereticus]

Aarakocra are a delicacy to many races, they are often hunted as food.

In the opening scene of PotA the six characters will walk past three hunters that are cooking an aarakocra to underscore this point to the two bird characters, to see how they will react (we start next Tuesday).

 

[HobbitFan]

Aarakocra are a delicacy to many races, they are often hunted as food.

In the opening scene of PotA the six characters will walk past three hunters that are cooking an aarakocra to underscore this point to the two bird characters, to see how they will react (we start next Tuesday).

That was more than a little random. Did you post in the wrong thread?