True 20 Combat

[Akrasia]

From what I've heard about True20, it seems to me that since it does simplify many things (no AoO's, no flanking, no multiple attacks, etc) it's better suited for superheroes/MnM and not a sword & sorcery-type game. I want things to be simplified and fast for a supers game since the action is so over the top to begin with. I think it actually would be too simple for a fantasy game.

I couldn't disagree more. When reading stories by Howard or Leiber, I never encountered references to 'Attacks of Opportunity', flanking, etc. Instead, the action is 'fast and furious'! True20 (IMO) captures that feel a lot better than a tactical min-wargame (e.g. 3e combat system) does.

 

[HellHound]

(hoping I don't come off too nasty here, but I think you are seriously exagerating the descriptions of combat in the works in question)

When reading stories by Howard or Leiber, I never encountered references to 'Attacks of Opportunity', flanking, etc.

Really? In none of those stories has anyone been struck when they let their guard down or when they turned to run away? No one has ever been disadvantaged in combat by being attacked from both sides?

You'll notice that none of these stories ever reference 'attack rolls', 'skill checks', 'character levels' or anything else directly, but the effects are felt throughout the stories.

Meh.

As for the miniatures aspect of D&D, I've played weekly 8 hour games for 9 months now without once breaking out a miniature or a battle mat.

 

[GreatLemur]

I love True20, but I think I'm going to have to put flanking and AoOs back in there. They just make too much sense to abandon them completely, and my interest in True20 has always been for the sake of flexibility, not simplicity.

 

[Denaes]

I love True20, but I think I'm going to have to put flanking and AoOs back in there. They just make too much sense to abandon them completely, and my interest in True20 has always been for the sake of flexibility, not simplicity.

In that sense, put the Roles, Feats & Damage Saves into D&D instead. You just need to get rid of the extra pre-reqs on AoO Feats.

 

[Akrasia]

(hoping I don't come off too nasty here, but I think you are seriously exagerating the descriptions of combat in the works in question)

No, I don't think I am exaggerating anything. The stories in question do *not* emphasize tactical considerations in their descriptions of combat.

Really? In none of those stories has anyone been struck when they let their guard down or when they turned to run away? No one has ever been disadvantaged in combat by being attacked from both sides?

All those factors are, or can be, accommodated by the True20 combat rules. They are simply accommodated with far less 'crunch' and rules than they are in 3e.

You'll notice that none of these stories ever reference 'attack rolls', 'skill checks', 'character levels' or anything else directly, but the effects are felt throughout the stories.

Meh.

Meh? What point are you trying to make by that?

Anyway, my point was that when you read a story by Howard, for example, the fiction does *not* emphasize the tactical elements of the combat. Rather it is 'fast and furious' in tone and feel. This is captured by True20 combat (which, btw, does include plenty of options). It is not well captured by 3e D&D combat IME (given how slow those combats tend to go, and how often considerations of 'will doing x prompt an AoO?' come up).

As for the miniatures aspect of D&D, I've played weekly 8 hour games for 9 months now without once breaking out a miniature or a battle mat.

Bully for you. Relevance?

 

[Skywalker]

I have to side with Akrasia here, though this is a balance of preference .

D&D deals with combat by covering every aspect of it with rules. This is where D&D looses me to be honest. I can understand the need for certainty but there is a point where certainty actually encourages a tactical mindset which IMO destroys the requisite fast paced feel of a good adventure movie or story.

True 20 on the other hand also has rules for many combat options but it either removes or changes those that require that "tactical" mindset. Instead, it focusses more on giving impact to the actions. As such, I find True 20 combat to be almost as varied as D&D combat (True 20 even has options that D&D doesn't have) but it has a faster pace and is not tactical.

 

[GreatLemur]

I love True20, but I think I'm going to have to put flanking and AoOs back in there. They just make too much sense to abandon them completely, and my interest in True20 has always been for the sake of flexibility, not simplicity.

In that sense, put the Roles, Feats & Damage Saves into D&D instead.

...And stats as modifiers instead of scores, and conviction points, and nature in place of alignment, and powers in place of spells, and story-based level advancement, and DEX modifiers to melee combat, and parrying and dodging defense, etc., etc., etc. There's more to True20 than flexible classes and map-free combat.

D&D definitely has some things I intend to keep, but I think I'd rather call True20 my starting place, if only because it's a cleaner slate. Of course, by the time I get done screwing with it, it won't be "True20 with some D&D" or vice-versa, it'll be something else altogether. An idealized--if extremely personalized--take on d20, I guess.

 

[Denaes]

...And stats as modifiers instead of scores, and conviction points, and nature in place of alignment, and powers in place of spells, and story-based level advancement, and DEX modifiers to melee combat, and parrying and dodging defense, etc., etc., etc. There's more to True20 than flexible classes and map-free combat.

D&D definitely has some things I intend to keep, but I think I'd rather call True20 my starting place, if only because it's a cleaner slate. Of course, by the time I get done screwing with it, it won't be "True20 with some D&D" or vice-versa, it'll be something else altogether. An idealized--if extremely personalized--take on d20, I guess.

Whatever floats your boat. There's more pages devoted to AoO, Feats and other D&D combat options than there are in the rules sections of True20 in total.

I was just stating that the way my mind works, it's easier to plop the character generation (with conviciton, magic, feats, etc) over to D&D.

Then again I have experience with this sort of thing. I regularily run BESM d20 using D&D or d20 Modern for character generation, just using the d20 engine from BESM d20 - so to me, it's easy to seperate the "Char Gen" rules from the "Play" rules.

By all means do whatever is easiest for you.

 

[Michael Tree]

Rather than import flanking and attacks of opportunity, which require tracking which 'squares' characters move through, and tend to limit fast action and wild derring do, I'd rather just make more use of circumstance bonuses and penalties.

AoO's are especially problematic in True20, because a free attack is much more powerful in True20 than it is in D&D. True20 has no iterative attacks, so an additional attack effectively doubles a character's offence, and under the damage save mechanic any extra attack is potentially lethal.

If you want to impose penalties for characters splitting their attention between different things, then just impose circumstance penalties. If you want to give bonuses for characters ganging up on opponents, then just give circumstance bonuses.

 

[GlassJaw]

when you read a story by Howard, for example, the fiction does *not* emphasize the tactical elements of the combat

In kind, I have to strongly disagree with this as well. Howard goes to great lengths in virtually every battle that Conan is in to detail the various parries, feints, sidesteps, backhand slices, crunching bones, etc. If those aren't tactical movements and maneuvers, I don't know what is.

Combat in Conan isn't reduced to a single "attack". The less options, the less gritty the feel becomes IMO. And Conan is gritty. It's not that a simpler ruleset loses the grittiness; it's that removing tactical choices makes the action simpler. In a gritty game, I want to be able to make AoO's or flank my opponent, etc. Heck, in Mongoose's Conan ruleset, there are 2 types of defense modifiers! (which captures the feel of Conan very well IMO)

When the characters are throwing people through buildings and lifting up cars, the tactical choices are less important.