True 20 - Is it really Simpler?

[iwatt]

iwatt, I'm also with you about players being more interested in casual gaming than nitty-gritty carnage. What's with that? If only we didn't need them at all! J/K

I have players talking about going back to the Rules Cyclopedia....

Death-spiral - Yes, as characters take more damage, they have modifiers applied to their actions, making it more difficult to hit or take action. If "Storyteller" you're referring to is the WoD rules, then some of my players who've been in Vampire games said that True20 is like combining D&D with WoD.

So does it produce the effect of whoever hits first wins, or am I doing the "reads bad, plays good" thing?

We found the damage track to be really easy to use- but it took some getting used to- the modifiers changing hasn't really been a problem- i mean telling someone to take -2 on their toughness save is about as complicated as it gets.

If it only affected Toughness saves it wouldn't be that bad, but from I can see from the quickstart guide:

Wounded characters are shaken, suffering a -2 penalty to all checks,
including attack rolls and saving throws.

 

[Treebore]

Would it help you reconsider C&C if I point out to you a couple of things?

1. Iconic classes. The SIEGE engine allows you to do ANYTHNG you want the players to attempt. Technically so would normal d20, BUT, yes, your an iconic class. So what? You allow the PC's to attempt anything, even a type of action like a feat. All you have to do is be quick enough to decide the target number for them to roll to succeed at the attempt.

Also, when you start playing and see how big an impact PRIME stats have, you'll see how iconic characters of the same class can be very different, if they don't also select the same PRIMES.

2. The xp charts. Well, my view is that there is no way you can possible "balance" classes with the same unified xp chart. But since you like the 3E chart you apparently have no problem with the lack of balance it causes in a 3E game, so use it in C&C. Like 3E, the imbalance doesn't really start becoming apparent until about 10th level.


C&C is designed to be a "basic" game. You add or change what you want. I mean the SIEGE mechanic is so versatile you can use material from OD&D, 1E, 2E, RIFTS, World of Darkness (I have been told that, I'm not a fan of WoD), and just about any other d20 type system.

So I wouldn't write off C&C if I were you. I would take a thorough look at it. Ask us questions on the forum linked off of the trolllord website. I think you'll like the game and our board community.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

1) The Damage and Fatigue saves seem more complex than hitpoint tracking. The variable modifiers and cross indexing between lethal and non-lethal status seems to be more work than simply substracting hp. Does it also introduce the "Death Spiral" effect typical of the old Storyteller system?

I don't think the Toughness save system is particularly complex, but it is different than d20 hitpoints so there is a bit of a learning curve issue I guess. However, after playing M&M and True20, I've found I prefer Toughness saves over hitpoints, primarily because combat seems to proceed much more quickly.

There is a death spiral of sorts - if you fail Toughness saves by a small amount, the small injuries accumulate and make failing Toughness saves more likely. However, these small injuries don't affect things like your attack or defense, so you fight as normal. But if you fail Toughness saves by larger amounts, you can suffer wound conditions that have a more immediate impact on you fighting ability, such as stunned, wounded, disabled, or unconscious.

In the fights I've run, heroes accumulate around 5 or bruised or injured wounds which don't limit their combat capability. When someone is stunned, people tend to more readily use Conviction/Hero Points to reroll Toughness saves. However, some players take the chance and just trust to their Toughness/defense while stunned and wait to their turn in order to heal.

2) How simple is the Powers system? Is it balanced? Is the True Sorcery sorcerer a better fit?

I think it's very simple - maybe make a power check/attack roll, then make a fatigue roll (Will save DC = 10 + Adept Level at which the spell was cast). I also really like how low level spell-users can cast spells as long as they don't exhaust themselves - the problem of a 1st level wizard being rendered useless by having no spells is no longer there. And IMO the spells are pretty balanced.

If you're looking to streamline your game, then IMO True Sorcery is not what you want. While I think it's a clever and very flexible system, it's definitly not as easy to use as the default True20 powers system.

 

[Qualidar]

Sadly, no, I've been thinking of writing some more detailed notes, but I tend to just make it up as I go along. I actually started with some kind of gritty detective thing in mind, and the next thing I knew there were giant apes, Lemurains, Nazi's, russian spys, giant sea monsters, lost islands, man eating Neandrthal tribes, and lots of other stuff- the last play session ended with a fire/magic fight on board an Atlantean Starship buried deep beneath the antartic ice.

It's posts like that that have me looking fo your location under the avatar.

~Qualidar~

 

[SpiralBound]

It's posts like that that have me looking fo your location under the avatar.

~Qualidar~

Me too! Hey, Jack! Please say you live in Newfoundland!

At the risk of threadjacking, I would love to see Mr. Morgan's campaign notes written up and posted on enworld!

 

[iwatt]

At the risk of threadjacking, I would love to see Mr. Morgan's campaign notes written up and posted on enworld!

At the risk of threadjacking my own thread, sign me up as interested in those campaign notes as well...

 

[Karl Green]

If it only affected Toughness saves it wouldn't be that bad, but from I can see from the quickstart guide:

It only affects your nest Toughness save, BUT there is a condition (Wounded) that gives you -2 to all your actions and saves (except Toughness save BTW) for 1 round. You can get hit with multiple Wounded in a round but the affects don't stack (as far as I have read).

So if you take 4 "hits" you are -4 to your next Toughness save. If on that save you fail by enough to be "wounded" you are now -5 to your next Toughness save and have a -2 to all other rolls and saves for 1 round (I think you are also stunned for one round, but I don't have the book with me so I can't check that to be sure)

 

[Karl Green]

Would it help you reconsider C&C if I point out to you a couple of things?

Not to disagree BUT I do

You might not have Feats and stuff but you still have to remember ALL the classes 'abilities' (basically Feats that are choosen for your instead of by you) and ALL the spells and spell like ability.

The rest I agree with but I am not that big a C&C fan so you should take me only with a grain of salt

 

[trilobite]

Sadly, no, I've been thinking of writing some more detailed notes, but I tend to just make it up as I go along. I actually started with some kind of gritty detective thing in mind, and the next thing I knew there were giant apes, Lemurains, Nazi's, russian spys, giant sea monsters, lost islands, man eating Neandrthal tribes, and lots of other stuff- the last play session ended with a fire/magic fight on board an Atlantean Starship buried deep beneath the antartic ice.

It's posts like that that have me looking fo your location under the avatar.

~Qualidar~

LOL! I was thinking the same thing! How big a commute would it be from Dallas to where ever you run your game?


PS: Sorry for another thread jacking but I am going to start a Pulp True20 play by post game thats a lot like Jack Morgan's game here on the ENWorld boards. If anyone is interested come by and take a look.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=2998264#post2998264

 

[Jack Morgan]

At the risk of threadjacking my own thread, sign me up as interested in those campaign notes as well...

Um... wow. I write everything by hand and it's mostly crib notes and such, but I'll see if i can put something together. It would probably take me a bit of time, but it might be good for me to do it at any rate- give me a week or so.

infourtunately I am not near Dallas or NFL, but in northern CO.

Thanks for the interest everyone- threadjack over.