True 20 questions

[Dragon-Slayer]

I also don't see what you can despise about the Roles without elaboration. They are nothing more than a core to build a type of character on, Roles are extremely barebones elements of True20. Warrior, Expert and Adept aren't classes at all, just guides. When you elaborate into Paths I can see where someone who doesn't like classes could have a problem, although Paths are still just guides and bundles of options, open to alteration.

I will also second the True 20 boards as among the best. Questions are answered quickly, there are conversions for everything under the sun and people are friendly.

 

[Aus_Snow]

The roles do grant unique abilities, based on which one's chosen at level 1. Perhaps that's the sticking point?

I will also second the True 20 boards as among the best. Questions are answered quickly, there are conversions for everything under the sun and people are friendly.

Yep, they are fantastic.

For that matter, I seem to remember seeing a 'classless True20' variant there, a while back. . .

 

[Daz]

Could you elaborate on that?
It could be that a) things aren't what you expect, b) there's been some house rule developed that fixed your issues, or c) we might be able to help you develop such a house rule. If you elaborate then it may be possible to figure out which one it is.

I don't like the design assumption that you need specific, abstract roles or else the players step on each others toes. That's why I loved M&M so much. Everyone picks some abilities and then you play.
Here's an example. By default, it looks like true20 disallows anyone but adepts from taking magical effects. But what if I want to emulate Avatar, where only expert martial artists can produce such effects. There is still a potential for character variety, but the true20 system doesn't really allow for the essential character concept.
That particular example is probably very easy to overcome, but my point is that roles like warrior, expert and adept (or even worse defender, striker, leader and controller) limit character creation rather than help a game move along.

 

[jezter6]

Well, you should like True20 then.

A role consists of the follwing:
1 Core Ability - It's the one cool thing that all persons of that role get and can be activated with your conviction points. Adepts ability allow them to use any power. Experts grant a monster skill bonus to a skill of their choosing (which makes them different than the other expert in the group) for a whole scene, and warriors get to recover from damage more quickly than adepts and experts.

1 - skills points/level package.
1 - Attack bonus/save bonus/reputation bonus package.
1 - access to role specific feat lists (which are huge, as is the 'any class' feat list)

That's it. That is ALL that 2 characters of the same role have in common.
They get 4-5 feats at first level, which can all be different. They get a new feat every level that can be different.

The only thing keeping a role like a 'class' is the skills/combat bonus/save 'package' per level. It's to keep you from getting uber skill bonus, uber combat bonus, and uber save bonuses. It keeps that little bit of fair balance between the classes.

Two warriors will have the same combat bonus. But the myriad of feats mean that at level 3, both experts in your party don't get the same 'find traps' ability like all the other d20 systems do. At level 3, each expert can pick their own darn ability by picking a feat.

Role is nothing in True20 like class is in d20.

Considering how truly generic the roles are, I don't understand how you find them limiting? A role is just a collection of stats and access to a feat list. You can freely multiclass into adept to get some adept powers. The reason you have to do that is to keep you from getting a monster attack bonus AND the cool use of powerful magic. If you could get both, then there's no reason not to take the uber cool class that allows you all the adept magic with all the combat god stats of the warrior.

It's there to keep balance. Also, if you want to create your own roles, the companion gives you a balanced way to do that. If you don't want everyone running around with magic, then remove the adept from your game and create a balanced class that focuses on martial arts and limited access to powers.

Or, just use the adept as is and describe it as martial arts. No reason a power has to look like a wizard casting spells.

Edit: removed an inaccuracy in my post about 2 experts having the same saves. I forgot that expert gets to choose 1 save as good and 2 saves as normal.

 

[Dragon-Slayer]

The abstract Roles only reflect your training in a given area up to the point in time where you begin play. There is no reason for a player not to pick up other Roles and multiple Role characters are common.

Even in classless games like Iron Gauntlets or the Omni system characters still begin with a bundle of skills and abilities that they add to for more options. In True 20 there will be skills/feats that a player can take that will simulate abilities from other Roles, like the Dabbler feat in True Sorcery that anyone can take.

I am not trying to sell True 20 as the be-all-end-all game system and maybe Mutants & Masterminds is really what you are after. I have never had the True 20 system limit character creation or game play, but rather simplify character creation and allow my players to focus on roleplaying.

 

[Skywalker]

The distinction between classes and roles is a tricky concept to get your mind around. If you want a truly "points buy" system with no classes, D20 and even True 20, are not the best choice as the underlying system doesn't have a way of equating what +1 bonus to combat is to a +1 to a skill.

On saying that, True 20 is as classless as you will get for D20 IMO and I actually like it, as I often find that attempts to equate every game element under one unifying resource system are flawed.

So, classes in d20 are a representation of the PC's occupation and training. They are about trying to restrict PCs to certain niches and concepts. As such, each level has a whole lot of baggage attached including setting elements.

I view Roles in True 20 more as a way to balance the three core elements of the system i.e. combat, magic and skills. Unfortunately D20, even streamlined as in True 20, doesn't provide for a way to directly balance these three elements, so the roles are used instead.

As such, True 20 feels much more classless than d20 as you simply choose the Role to give effect to the character choice you want to make. It balances character against each other without impinging on the freedom of choice as to PC concept etc.

To give an example, the Adept is the only role that can take magical powers. However, anyone can take a level of Role to access this. Doing so doesn't incorporate additional baggage that the PC is now a wizard.

 

[jezter6]

I've found that with just about any class/role system, it's more about being able to abstract yourself from the title of the role. If the role says Warrior, too many people think that to take that role, you must be a Warrior, and that all fighting types MUST be Warriors.

A class is just a package of (what is supposed to be) balanced benefits. It is only there to prevent everyone from having the max of everything, or the max of too many things without giving enough up. You can call it a class. You can call it a role. It's doesn't matter what you call it, it's just a grouping of balanced bonuses and penalties (access to a feat list is a bonus - access to feats others cannot access).

If you can divorce the name from the stat grouping, then it's pretty much classless. Think about it: If, in M&M, you built your character from PL 1 to PL 10, each level you would pick the following:
Attack Progression, Defense Progression, Save Progression.
If you pick the same grouping over and over, it's really just a package of stats. You know that for 8 PP you can pickup X in attack, Y in defense, and Z in Save. It's basically a 'class' in that it's somewhat standardized.

The role concept is the same way, they are just packages of stats that are there for balance. Forget the names attached to them and just think of them as package 1, 2, or 3. Package 1 is low skills/low attack/medium saves, benefit: Magic. Package 2 is high skill/medium attack/medium saves. Package 3 is low skill, high attack, medium saves.

Then pick your package and put 'Warrior' every time you picked Package 3.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I don't like the design assumption that you need specific, abstract roles or else the players step on each others toes.

Neither did Steve Kenson when he designed True20. True20 has roles to allow players to build a character that does the in-story job they want to do (their role in the tale) while still remaining balanced with the other members of the party. The roles aren't there to limit, or prevent toe stepping (nothing stops you from having a party of six experts), they are there to make character generation faster and easier than it is in systems like GURPS or M&M.

Here's an example. By default, it looks like true20 disallows anyone but adepts from taking magical effects. But what if I want to emulate Avatar, where only expert martial artists can produce such effects.

What about it?
a) There is a fan-developed conversion for Avatar on the Settings portion of the True20 forums.
b) There is a feat in the True20 companion developed for exactly that desire.
c) There is no reason Adept power usage can't be advanced martial arts techniques. This leads to the interesting encounter of a purely physical martial artist (mostly Warrior) versus a much more mystical martial artist (mostly Adept). If both play to their strengths then it should be an even match.

There is still a potential for character variety, but the true20 system doesn't really allow for the essential character concept.
That particular example is probably very easy to overcome, but my point is that roles like warrior, expert and adept (or even worse defender, striker, leader and controller) limit character creation rather than help a game move along.

Right. You appear to be projecting the flaws of every Class-based system, ever, onto the True20 Roles. You appear to be doing so without having actually looked at the True20 Roles. (If my assumptions are in error then please correct me.)
The only 'limitation' on the roles is that certain abilities that only make sense for combat experts, skill masters, or mystic delvers are only available to those types of characters. There are a few exceptions, where something that could reasonably be available to anyone are only available to one role (Sneak Attack leaps to mind), but those exceptions are limited for game balance purposes; the limitation creates a cost for certain powerful combinations and gives roles that might be weak in a specific area some unique options that allow them to shine even outside their primary role.

I hope you'll take a look at True20, and judge the system by what is there and not based upon any class-based system. It's one of my favorite d20 variants, and one of my favorite game systems, so I want people to like it. However, no one can be forced to like something, so I won't try to push you into liking it, and I hope no one else tries to force you into liking it.
(Yes, I'm not classifying True20 as a class-based system. That's intentional. Those familiar with my arguments on the topic will know why. Roles aren't classes, they are Roles; they have different assumptions, different mechanics, and a different purpose within the game than classes do.)

 

[Daz]

Let me first say that, if I was quick to dismiss true20 or other systems, it is not because I don't think they would be fun to play. True20 mght be exactly right for some people. I'm sure I would have a great time playing it, and I can see by looking at the rules that it allows for much more character flexibility than other systems.
What I meant when I said I dislike roles was that I hate it when players think of their characters from the standpoint of "well, heres the meatshield, this guy blasts things but is weak hand-to-hand etc." those are very good concepts, but there are others as well. Why sould supernatural powers always be balnced with physical mediocity? There are other ways to mke fun stories.
Sorry if my position wasn't very clear. I understand the advantages of roles and classes, I was just wondering if there was a system that had the advantages of using neither.

 

[Daz]

Let me also say that if I do run a game, I probably will use true20. I was just wondering if there was someting a little different out there as well.