True Sorcery question

[JohnSnow]

I honestly think there was more discussion of True Sorcery on the Iron Heroes boards than anywhere else. There were a few threads here when it was first released, but those have died off. Meanwhile, over at the Iron Heroes site, we've bent, folded, spindled, twisted and mutilated those rules repeatedly. Personally, I think that's because it was the first official magic rules for IH that all of us sort of liked.

Of course, I think we've gone beyond that now. But I'd freely admit my current magic system efforts are heavily influenced by True Sorcery. However, my major focus is to get the runaway DCs under control but keep the system balanced. A tall order, I know.

 

[Banshee16]

I honestly think there was more discussion of True Sorcery on the Iron Heroes boards than anywhere else. There were a few threads here when it was first released, but those have died off. Meanwhile, over at the Iron Heroes site, we've bent, folded, spindled, twisted and mutilated those rules repeatedly. Personally, I think that's because it was the first official magic rules for IH that all of us sort of liked.

Of course, I think we've gone beyond that now. But I'd freely admit my current magic system efforts are heavily influenced by True Sorcery. However, my major focus is to get the runaway DCs under control but keep the system balanced. A tall order, I know.

I'll have to go take a look....are those boards on www.montecook.com?

I think the system has fantastic potential, but it almost does require a spreadsheet or calculator so you're not spending 30 minutes crunching numbers every time you want to cast a spell.

I'm of mixed minds about the DCs.....on one hand, yes, they're very high.....far too high to generate similar effects to what a wizard can do, in many cases.

If a lvl 10 Wizard can cast Bull's Strength that lasts 10 minutes, and gives +4 STR during that time, what chance does a Spellcaster with maxed Spellcraft ranks have of duplicating that effect? I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it would take him longer, inflict more drain, etc. Maybe I'm wrong.

But on the flip side, I don't think the rules are intended to duplicate high magic, with wizards flipping off fireballs right, left, and center. And that's fine....it's a different take on the game.

But given the difference in effects, and the potency of those effects, it's really difficult to combine Spellcasters (replacing sorcerers) with Wizards, because the Spellcasters will have far more flexibility, but a prepared wizard will have power powerful effects, castable without a roll that can be failed, and more potent at any particular level than that which the Spellcaster can generate.

So you get rid of wizards, and only have Spellcasters, but now, how does that affect the magic items used by all characters in the campaign? Given permanent items use up Spell Energy, I'd think there will be far fewer magic items available, which can throw things off.

I think this works with lower-magic settings, where there are other elements in place to balance character power against the lower volume of vorpal swords and fireball wands....but the standard D&D paradigm makes it difficult to use.

This is one reason I kind of resent how closely linked magic items have become into how the game was designed in the core rules. Makes it really difficult to run things differently.

Banshee

 

[Pbartender]

I'll have to go take a look....are those boards on www.montecook.com?

Yep, look here.

I think the system has fantastic potential, but it almost does require a spreadsheet or calculator so you're not spending 30 minutes crunching numbers every time you want to cast a spell.

It's not as bad as you think.... I find it helps greatly to have a bunch of often used effects statted out ahead of time.

For example, you can have something like this written down for Create Energy (Fire):

Ray of Fire, DC 18, 1d6 damage (+1d6 = +5 DC), ranged touch 10 ft range (+10 ft. = +1 DC).

Burst of Fire, DC 20, 1d6 damage (+1d6 = +5 DC), 10 ft range (+10 ft. = +1 DC), 5 ft radius burst (+5 ft = +5 DC).

Cone of Fire, DC 24, 1d6 damage (+1d6 = +5 DC), 10 ft cone (+10 ft. = +6 DC).

A crib sheet of spells like this really speeds up play.

I'm of mixed minds about the DCs.....on one hand, yes, they're very high.....far too high to generate similar effects to what a wizard can do, in many cases.

I've been using the Thieves' World variation for casting spells in True Sorcery... That is, the spellcraft check is cumulative (the results of each successive Spellcraft check adds to the previous total) until you accumulate enough skill check to beat the DC. It also allows you to ignore the little chart for casting times. It's much simpler.

But on the flip side, I don't think the rules are intended to duplicate high magic, with wizards flipping off fireballs right, left, and center. And that's fine....it's a different take on the game.

Exactly.

But given the difference in effects, and the potency of those effects, it's really difficult to combine Spellcasters (replacing sorcerers) with Wizards, because the Spellcasters will have far more flexibility, but a prepared wizard will have power powerful effects, castable without a roll that can be failed, and more potent at any particular level than that which the Spellcaster can generate.

Yep... Though they can, TS Spellcasters aren't really meant to mix with D&D spellcasting classes.

I think this works with lower-magic settings, where there are other elements in place to balance character power against the lower volume of vorpal swords and fireball wands....but the standard D&D paradigm makes it difficult to use.

Which is part of the reason why IH players are so fond of the system.

 

[Banshee16]

A crib sheet of spells like this really speeds up play.

Maybe queue cards...

I've been using the Thieves' World variation for casting spells in True Sorcery... That is, the spellcraft check is cumulative (the results of each successive Spellcraft check adds to the previous total) until you accumulate enough skill check to beat the DC. It also allows you to ignore the little chart for casting times. It's much simpler.

Part of the problem though, appears to be those very casting times. Because DCs get so high in the game, and DCs are linked to casting times, you could have a, say, lvl 15 spellcaster trying to use a spell against a lvl 15 opponent. A spell for an opponent of that level needs to have the number of dice of damage, and possibly area effect cranked up (if there are multiples). This could easily take DCs into the stratosphere. I mean, what will his Spellcraft check honestly be? If he's maxed his ranks, he's going to be Third Magnitude, and that means he should have somewhere in the neighbourhood of + 39 to his Magic Use check (+18 skill points, +3 skill focus, +16 Intuition bonus, +2 Synergy (Knowledge: Arcane 5 ranks)). Assuming an average roll of 10 to the Spellcraft check, that means he has a 50% chance to hit a 49 DC. Assuming I focus on pumping up your cone of fire spell, he could do 6d6 damage with it, if he goes for a spell DC of 29.

If he tries to do more damage, his chance of success commensurately decreases for each extra d6, *and* it takes him longer to whip it out.

If you use the Thieves World adaptation, you could have him spend longer to gather more energy, allowing him to succeed against a higher DC....but now he's going to be standing there, casting, for round after round, while that lvl 15 opponent is taking actions. Not a problem if it's another spellcaster, but it *is* a problem if it's a fighter or rogue.

Obviously, a regular wizard would be in trouble if standing near a lvl 15 fighter...but the wizard also has potent spells that can easily and quickly get him away, and effect the fighter...all with one round casting times.

Maybe that's the way the system is supposed to work. Maybe it's intended only for low magic. Or maybe it's just seeming like a problem to me, but it's not the system that is the problem....just my fears about it, which, admittedly, might be rooted in not having actually played with it yet.

Banshee

 

[Pbartender]

Part of the problem though, appears to be those very casting times. Because DCs get so high in the game, and DCs are linked to casting times, you could have a, say, lvl 15 spellcaster trying to use a spell against a lvl 15 opponent. A spell for an opponent of that level needs to have the number of dice of damage, and possibly area effect cranked up (if there are multiples). This could easily take DCs into the stratosphere.

I would direct you to the rules on Preparing Spells on pages 17 & 18 of the True Sorcery PDF...

Preparation

At your option, you may prepare one or more spell effects ahead of time to cast more quickly later. To prepare a spell effect in advance, you must spend the appropriate number of actions casting, except for the very last action. Thereafter, the effect is stored in your mind, and you may complete the effect by spending 1 standard action to finish the casting. Preparing spell effects ahead of time necessarily prevents you from casting them as quickened actions.

Storing spell effects is not foolproof. For as long as you store the effect, you must consciously keep the spell effect in mind. If you lose consciousness, you lose all of the stored effects. You may store a maximum number of effects equal to your Intelligence bonus. If you don’t have an Intelligence bonus, you cannot prepare spells ahead of time.

 

[Relique du Madde]

If you use the Thieves World adaptation, you could have him spend longer to gather more energy, allowing him to succeed against a higher DC....but now he's going to be standing there, casting, for round after round, while that lvl 15 opponent is taking actions. Not a problem if it's another spellcaster, but it *is* a problem if it's a fighter or rogue.

Obviously, a regular wizard would be in trouble if standing near a lvl 15 fighter...but the wizard also has potent spells that can easily and quickly get him away, and effect the fighter...all with one round casting times.

Maybe that's the way the system is supposed to work. Maybe it's intended only for low magic. Or maybe it's just seeming like a problem to me, but it's not the system that is the problem....just my fears about it, which, admittedly, might be rooted in not having actually played with it yet.

I think its also intended to be as a "realistic" as possible since one would expect that in the real world magic would take alot of time an effort to control. As a result, the Spell Caster requires more strategy to play then a standard light armored mobile artilery array... i mean wizard/sorceror.

So yeah... cue cards with defensive spells is the key to their sucess .

 

[igavskoga]

Any spell with a stratospheric DC comparative to your level isn't something that is meant to be tossed around. As far as damage spells go, the system is built for lower powered, much more flexible spells to be cast many many more times.

I don't remember the number offhand, but my example for this has always been a 5th level Wizard vs Spellcaster. The wizard's fireball is more powerful, but can only be cast 2 or 3 times a day. The spellcaster's fireball is slightly shorter range and damage (I'm talking 4d6 instead of 6d6... tho you could prob manage 6d4) but you could throw it maybe a dozen times a day depending on when you could get to rest, if there was healing available, and how low you rolled on Drain.

You've got to consider the fact that yeah, wizards and sorc's spells tend to be higher damage on a pure level by level comparison, but the Spellcaster can often cast them many more times in a day.

The large, nasty, crazy spell effects are meant to be prepped in advance. That's part of the balance of the system.

Stat out some characters and make some spells. Compare how often you can cast them.

Make a 5th level fireball spell. Then realize that in situations (like, say, getting surrounded) where fireball would be useless, altering the shape of the spell just a bit leaves the spellcaster with things to do, and the Wizard staring at his two memorized fireball spells.

Gotta think outside of the box to really "get" the system. You also can't play Spellcasters as the mobile artillery platform that their core counterparts are. If you try to play it like a Sorcerer with more math you'll just be disappointed.

Also, as far as casting times go, remember that casting time isn't determined on that chart by total spell DC, its determined by Spell DC - Spellcraft Mod + Magnitude Bonus. If that still isn't enough for you, make up some feats and allow them to be added in. Skill Focus (Spellcraft) could be applicable already, I don't remember. Could also allow Talent Focus to be applicable (if it isn't already). That would help if you still deem casting times as too high.

Its modular, there's lots you can do to nip and tuck corners and put your stamp on the system.

 

[Banshee16]

Is there an effect that allows for Damage Resistance (a la Stoneskin)? From what I read last night, Protection only allows for the addition of intuition bonuses to AC, or for DR against energy damage (I think).

Also, the Defy Time feat....at each Magnitude, it says "as previous level".

If one magnitude lets you add Con Bonus x 2 in years to each age category, and then the next magnitude says "as previous magnitude plus XYZ", does that mean you add the bonus from the previous magnitude twice? So, if your CON is 10, then at Magnitude 1, your middle age might not be until 55. But if you reach Magnitude 2, does that mean your Middle Age is now 75, or is it still 55, plus the new Magnitude 2 effects, whatever they are?

Banshee

 

[Relique du Madde]

Is there an effect that allows for Damage Resistance (a la Stoneskin)? From what I read last night, Protection only allows for the addition of intuition bonuses to AC, or for DR against energy damage (I think).

Yes, thats under Ward.

Tough Hide
Spellcraft: DC 54; Component: V; Range: Personal; Target:
You; Duration: 1 minute; Saving Throw: Will negates
(harmless); Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless).
Your skin thickens, and you gain damage reduction 10/slashing
or piercing.
Math: DC 15 base, slashing (+20), +5 protection (+10), round
to minute (+9).

 

[Relique du Madde]

Also, the Defy Time feat....at each Magnitude, it says "as previous level".

If one magnitude lets you add Con Bonus x 2 in years to each age category, and then the next magnitude says "as previous magnitude plus XYZ", does that mean you add the bonus from the previous magnitude twice? So, if your CON is 10, then at Magnitude 1, your middle age might not be until 55. But if you reach Magnitude 2, does that mean your Middle Age is now 75, or is it still 55, plus the new Magnitude 2 effects, whatever they are?

Banshee

At Magnitude 2.. You recieve the bonuses for being middle age at 35 BUT you no longer recieve penalties due to aging unless you are at 0 spell energy (those penalties last until you regain atleast 1 spell energy). However, If you recieved any aging penalties before reaching magnitude 2 you keep those. Unfortunately, you still die when your modified life span is spent.